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View Full Version : 4 Left, in 3rd. Do you go all-in also to up your odds of 3rd?


Fraubump
05-25-2004, 07:19 PM
This situation seems to come up a fair amount. Short stack is all-in. Someone else has raised. You have very few chips, but started with more than Short Stack. You hold something reasonable, but not great, like QJ. Do you chuck your chips in also to increase likelihood of eliminating all-in player? (Also giving yourself a chance to accumulate some chips) Or do you stay out of it and hope the in player loses, yet give yourself some chance to survive if s/he doesn't?

I keep trying this play, but keep getting hosed. I think it's the right play, but am not sure.

adanthar
05-25-2004, 07:51 PM
Depending on who else has called, I'll usually at least *call* (not necessarily all in, just call, even if that leaves me pot committed) and see the flop with a QJ type hand or better.

If I miss completely and the other guy bets at me, I can then safely fold. If I hit, I will still check but call a bet. Usually, on Party, if the other guy doesn't hit anything he'll just check it down.

This assumes I'm so shortstacked that I'm playing for third, however. Generally, I'm going all in or folding long before that point.

AA suited
05-26-2004, 09:16 AM
hm..i'm #3 stack with QJ. short stack went all in, bigger stack raised.

I would just sit and see the outcome. big stack wins, you r in the $. short stack wins, you are still alive. calling in this situation (with marginal cards) offers too little benefit for the risk. your goal on the bubble is to be top 3. if someone else wants to take out the shortstack, let them unless you have JJ, qq,kk,aa or AK. Why risk it?

tolbiny
05-26-2004, 10:04 AM
I wouldnt go all in with a hand like QJ- with two players voluntarily putting thier chips in a hand like QJ is likely the worst heads up hand of the three- or at best the second best hand over the small stack. one of the other big stacks has offered to take him out for you- let him try.
The only exception i would have to this is if you were in the blinds and folding would leave you virtually no chacne at third if the ss wins. AT that point there is no reason not to push at all.

Fraubump
05-26-2004, 03:30 PM
Let me use specific chip counts.

Blinds 300/600 ante 50

You UTG: 1100 QJo
Button: 7300
SB: 4600
BB: 500 (all-in by virtue of blind)

You check. Button min raises. SB Folds. BB is all-in (no choice).

So you have enough chips to see a hand in BB and maybe pass it up and get 1 more hand, though with hardly any chips left.

Basic considerations:

All-in has random hand.
If you fold and all-in wins, s/he will have 1450 (remember the antes). You are then on the hot seat.
Raiser may not have much either.

Does your contributing 2 high cards (QJ) to the mix increase the odds of beating the all-in player by enough to be worth it. Added consideration: you might triple up and have a better shot at a higher payout.

Your other option is to fold and hope all-in loses, but if not, be faced with an all-in of your own within one or two hands, so essentially with a random hand.

Can anyone put some math to this?

I still feel in this situation, pushing in is right, but would like some hard numbers to prove it.

tolbiny
05-26-2004, 03:41 PM
"You UTG: 1100 QJo
Button: 7300
SB: 4600
BB: 500 (all-in by virtue of blind)

You check. "

If your UTG then how cna you check?

Jason Strasser
05-26-2004, 04:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Blinds 300/600 ante 50

You UTG: 1100 QJo
Button: 7300
SB: 4600
BB: 500 (all-in by virtue of blind)

You check. Button min raises. SB Folds. BB is all-in (no choice).

[/ QUOTE ]

I once tried to tell an opponent it wasn't my style to put in antes (during draw poker). But this takes it to a new level. Calling without investing! Infitite EV!

Fraubump
05-27-2004, 03:17 AM
My bad. Too tired to correct scenario right now. Just imagine one where your inaction leaves you with hardly any chips and a hope that an all-in loses (and thus your own random hand all-in within 2 hands) vs. you going all-in also to increase odds of busting all-in player.

Kurn, son of Mogh
05-27-2004, 09:56 AM
I'm all-in UTG with QJ in this scenario. The BB will eat up more than half my stack. QJ is good enough.

tolbiny
05-30-2004, 12:48 PM
the last line of my origanal reply was something like "if folding leaves you with virtually no chance of 3rd if the small stack wins then there is no reason not to go all in here.
In this case then you are also not only simply increaing the cahnces of taking 3rd but trying to win the pot to increase your chances of taking 1st or 2nd. However, on ething to look at before making this call is to check out the size of the stack that is going up against the all-in. sometimes losing may cripple him and you and he willhave about the same chances of takeing third.

SparkMan
05-31-2004, 12:44 AM
With the short stack all-in BB you must take a stab at taking him out with QJo. I've seen many times where everyone will fold including the SB who only has to call 200. It seems incredible but it happens a lot. You're 7to5 favourite over a random blind hand. If another hand enters the pot that's probably 2 better than average hands versus a blind hand. Even if the other caller has say A8o you're 3 to 1 favourite finish at least third.