PLO8 Tournament Hand - Looking for comments. [Archive]

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MilesDavis

05-25-2004, 03:57 PM

Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8 Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed)

Only thing to add is SB is very loose, he would make his bet on the flop with almost any hand. He likes big stacks and is extremely loose with them.

Hero (t1760)
UTG (t2659)
UTG+1 (t2160)
MP1 (t1786)
MP2 (t2320)
CO (t1357)
Button (t677)
SB (t8566)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 calls t50, MP2 calls t50, CO calls t50, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players) 
SB bets t200, Hero raises to t900, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t900, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB calls t700.

Turn: (t3000) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players) 
SB bets t3000, Hero calls t810 (All-In), MP1 calls t836 (All-In).

River: (t7646) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, 2 all-in) 

Final Pot: t7646

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 6s 4c Ts Tc (Low: 8, 6, 5, 4, 2 | High: three of a kind, tens).
MP1 shows Ah 3s Kh Qd (Low: 8, 5, 3, 2, A | High: flush, ace high).
SB shows 9s Ac 7s Jh (Low: 8, 7, 5, 2, A | High: straight, jack high).
Outcome: MP1 wins t5482. SB wins t2164.

Beavis68

05-25-2004, 05:19 PM

I dont like trips in omaha high low - you need to boat up.

Also, with two low cards on the flop, it is very likely you will only get 1/2 the pot. The re-raise on the flop was probably too agressive. the turn bet was really not good, you were up against a straight, and were drawing to win.

I think you got over invested in the hand too early.

DPCondit

05-25-2004, 05:51 PM

I like the flop bet myself. While a lot of cards make a low possible, 22 cards (A, K, 6, 5, 4, 3) make no straight possible on the turn, and of course no flush is possible on the turn, and 7 cards make you the nut boat on the turn. Having a low draw out there means you may get called from people drawing at a low that may not even get there, so it's not that bad.

On the turn, you're behind but you've got good odds to call. Ten outs to the nut high, which also kills the low for a scooper if you hit. Plus, look at your opponents low hands, if an Ace or three hits, you get the low half, so that's 5 outs to win half the pot (or 2 1/2 scoop equivalent outs as Buzz would say, that is at least if you knew that an Ace or a Three would win half for you). Of course you didn't know that, but nonetheless, your hand should still have some low equity either way.

Don

Buzz

05-25-2004, 07:22 PM

Hi Don - I wrote my reply to Miles, but since you've posted ahead of me, I'll tack it on to your post and add a couple of comments regarding your post.

Hi Miles - On the third betting round you’re getting 4.7 to 1 pot odds if MP1 doesn’t call and 5.7 to 1 pot odds if MP1 does call. Meanwhile the odds against the board pairing on the river are only 3.4 to 1. You clearly have very favorable odds to call on the turn. Your odds are so favorable that not calling on the turn would be horrid.

math set ups:
(3000+810)/810 .....
(3000+1620)/810 .....
34/10

So if you erred playing the hand, and I’m not saying (or implying) you did, then your mistake must have been making a pot sized raise on the second betting round with top set.

Going back to the third betting round odds, perhaps you can see that if you had a large enough stack, you would not be getting favorable odds to call. If you had enough to cover the bet, you’d only be getting 2 to 1 pot odds if MP1 didn’t call and, assuming MP1 had the amount he actually had, only about 2.3 to 1 if MP1 did call. Either way, you wouldn't have favorable odds to call if you give your opponents credit for having any sense.

math set ups:
(3000+3000)/3000
(3000+3000+836)/3000

Some of the other posters know pot limit much better than I do, but it looks to me like you might not have enough chips in your stack to make such a large raise on the second betting round. The reason is, on the next betting round (the third), because of your small stack size, you’ll be stuck with favorable odds to call.

I’m assuming that you understand you’re drawing (to make a full house) once you get called on the second betting round. With these flop cards your set of tens can never be the nuts on the river. Your set of tens might eke out a win, but you’ll be sweating a possible flush or straight, or at least a set of kings. Thus you’ll need the board to pair to feel good about your hand on the river (and you still won’t feel good if it pairs with jacks, queens, kings, or aces).

Buzz /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Back to you, Don.

[ QUOTE ]
I like the flop bet myself. While a lot of cards make a low possible, 22 cards (A, K, 6, 5, 4, 3) make no straight possible on the turn, and of course no flush is possible on the turn, and 7 cards make you the nut boat on the turn. Having a low draw out there means you may get called from people drawing at a low that may not even get there, so it's not that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the flop too. And while most of the cards in the deck don't enable a straight on the turn, every two-card combination yet to come (except those that involve kings plus non-ace wheel cards) does. And with a king on the river Miles may not have the top set anymore.

(It's pretty easy to see this. 8-T reaches up to a queen and down to a six. The flop deuce fits with any two wheel cards. All that's left are two-card combinations of kings plus twos, threes, fours, or fives.)

It's not guaranteed that anyone will make the straight even if one is enabled, of course, and it's thus possible the set of tens might hold up. But, still, I think Miles should expect that - once he is called on the second betting round - he will need the board to pair on either the turn or the river.

Miles' pot sized raise on the second betting round would seem designed more to take the pot right there, or at least knock out the weak straight draws and back-door flush draws. From that perspective it's hard to find fault with the pot sized raise.

[ QUOTE ]
if an Ace or three hits, you get the low half, so that's 5 outs to win half the pot (or 2 1/2 scoop equivalent outs as Buzz would say

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for thinking about me. Yeah, he might win the low with an ace or a trey. I didn't even think about that - and I should have. I don't know as I'd give it quite 2 1/2 scoop equivalent outs, though. Maybe more like 1 1/2. But even without that, Miles has odds to call on the third betting round.

Take care.

Buzz /images/graemlins/cool.gif

DPCondit

05-25-2004, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the flop too. And while most of the cards in the deck don't enable a straight on the turn, every two-card combination yet to come (except those that involve kings plus non-ace wheel cards) does. And with a king on the river Miles may not have the top set anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but any non-straight card on the turn also lets him pot it again, putting a lot of pressure on any straight draws. You may be able to fold a straight draw on the turn if no straight card hits.

Yes, of course, on this flop, it would be nice to take the pot right there, but I was just saying you're in pretty good shape either way.

As far as the "scoop equivalent outs", I did put a qualifier, of if you "knew" this would hog you the low half, you could call it 2 1/2 outs. In reality 1 1/2 would probably be more useful.

MilesDavis

05-25-2004, 08:28 PM

Thanks for the responses. Much appreciated.

[ QUOTE ]
Miles' pot sized raise on the second betting round would seem designed more to take the pot right there, or at least knock out the weak straight draws and back-door flush draws. From that perspective it's hard to find fault with the pot sized raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my thinking. Additionally, if I flat call my two lows cards go way down in value (to almost zero value if there are additional callers - and given how many players are left to act I have to figure there are going to be some if the price is just 200 with multiple callers). I would rather get most of my money in against agressive SB heads-up when I think I have the best of it in at least one way (and as it turns out in both ways on the flop).

Now if the board is the same but has two of a suit I obviously don't make this same bet as I risk going up against a suited A3XX or maybe even a suited A4XX. Also if the two low cards are closer together even with a rainbow flop I am more likely to slow down as I could be dealing with a nut low draw and low straight wrap.

I felt like this flop was a good spot. I am personal surprised that the mid position player, calls with a naked a3 for low and a backdoor flush draw. He calls 900 in a 1300 pot (or 2000 if he assumes the SB calls) with just a low draw (that could easily be counterfeited). I have to like his call despite that fact that I am more likely to survive this hand with him out.

That is more of my thinking. Thanks to Buzz and DPCondit for explaining the odds on my turn call. I am not that good with exact odds, but at that point since the board pairing means I scoop, I figured my all in call had to be getting proper odds.

DPCondit

05-25-2004, 09:03 PM

Whoops, a 6 makes a straight possible on the turn, make it 19 non-pairing cards that don't make a straight possible. Sorry.

But, let's ignore the flush for now, how many cards would have actually made an opponent a straight here? (also ignoring the fact that the straight actually came on the turn). There are 15 known cards (looking at our opponent's hands for the sake of illustration), so a 37 card stub, our opponents need any Jack, or exactly 4 and 5, or any Queen, 9, 7 or 6. Any runner-runner pair fills us up, but any runner-runner Aces, Kings, Queens, or Jacks, makes someone else a bigger full house, but we won't count Queens or Jacks, because they complete someone elses hand anyways.

If you want to do the math, be my guest, but look at the simulation here:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=319997
pokenum -o8 6s 4c ts tc - ah 3s kh qd - 9s ac 7s jh -- th 2c 8d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ts 6s Tc 4c 206 362 304 0 140 226 0 0.469
3s Qd Ah Kh 50 62 604 0 337 53 0 0.318
9s 7s Ac Jh 30 242 424 0 18 372 0 0.212

Now the turn, even after one of the worst imaginable cards hits:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=320000
pokenum -o8 6s 4c ts tc - ah 3s kh qd - 9s ac 7s jh -- th 2c 8d 9h
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 36 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th 9h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ts 6s Tc 4c 9 9 27 0 5 7 0 0.319
3s Qd Ah Kh 8 9 27 0 13 0 0 0.361
9s 7s Ac Jh 5 18 18 0 0 13 0 0.319

This hand is a lot stronger than it looks.

Don

MilesDavis

05-25-2004, 09:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now the turn, even after one of the worst imaginable cards hits

[/ QUOTE ]

7 or a 6 are much worse cards for me, because I am no longer drawing for all the pot assuming I don't know my opponents cards. 6 is very bad as it kills any chance of my low, plus I am still drawing for half.

But those simulations based on what happen are very interesting. Thanks

DPCondit

05-25-2004, 09:46 PM

A 4 or six is the worst, because then you lose all low equity, you may have to fold then. I should have said one of the "worst imaginable high cards". Anything but a 4, 6 or 7 and you're in good shape. An ace or a three and you're in great shape, (even imagining we don't know their cards).

You may get to see the river free though if a low card hits, because even a nut low might be afraid of getting quartered, unless they pick up an excellent high draw as well. A lot of cards are worse than a 9h, I should have said it differently, but a low card that completely kills your low, or makes a straight possible, and you can fold to a pot sized bet, or maybe get lucky and get a free river.

Still, overall, it's a pretty strong hand.

Don

Buzz

05-25-2004, 11:33 PM

Hi Don - Good post! Deserves a good response. I’ll give it a shot.

This is a very common type of flop (two low cards, no pairs, rainbow), occurring about 15.2% of the time. Because it’s so common, Miles’ opponents must be very familiar with it, although they may not have thought about it as I’m describing it here.

To play after this particular flop in a pot limit game, I think you need a minimum of one or more of the following:
a. top set plus (see below)
b. nut straight draw plus (see below)
c. nut low draw plus (see below)

a. With top set, you like a back-up straight draw and/or a shot at low. Back door flush draws are good too. (Miles actually has all this).

b. You like your nut straight draw to be a wrap around and/or to have a good low draw, and also a back door flush draw or two. Or you like your nut straight draw hand to also have flopped two pairs and therefore also have a draw to a full house.

c. You like your nut low draw to have counterfeit protection and also a shot at high, perhaps as a straight draw plus a back-door flush draw or two. The nut low draw without counterfeit protection needs an even better shot at high, maybe two pair, a set, or a nut straight draw.

You’re basically on a draw after this flop with all three of these types of hands.

You never know for sure what your opponents are playing in Omaha-8, but I think Miles should expect any of his opponents who continue after this flop to have one of these three types of hands.

Miles already has the top set. As it turns out Miles gets two callers. Since they should already realize Miles probably has the top set, they probably have nut low draws and straight draws - and possibly back-door flush draws. Fine.

There’s a very reasonable chance they’re copying each other and have the same outs, which makes Miles hand very strong. However, there’s also a chance that one of them is foolishly playing two pairs or a set of sixes or deuces - and in that case some of Miles’ outs are in the hand of one opponent, who is drawing dead. Sounds good for Miles, except that it enriches the pack for the other opponent. But if that’s the case, then the other opponent still has to make a straight (or flush) to beat Miles, and the other opponent can’t have all the possible straight draws covered.

Miles basically announces that he has top set when he makes a pot sized raise after this flop. (He could have something else, perhaps a semi-bluff, but I think his bet _represents top set. And that’s fine. I’m not being critical. Miles “pots it” hoping to win right there. And if Small Blind calls, Miles has a very nice fit with the flop for one-on-one play. And if someone chases with a hand that is very similar hand to small blind’s hand, that’s marvelous. And even if they don’t have overlapping hands, well... Miles _does have top set.

The nine of hearts on the turn may look worse than it actually is. (Anyone drawing to a straight with a board of 2-8-T should already have a nine). Does somebody coincidentally also have J-Q, 7-J, or 7-8? There’s no way to know for certain. (I still haven’t looked at the results).

At any rate, Don, I agree that Miles has a strong hand.

What I’m thinking, and maybe I’m wrong, is that Miles may not have enough chips to support a pot sized raise on the second betting round.

To get _all his chips in on the second betting round would be one thing, and would maximize his chances of taking down the pot with his raise - but to get _most of his chips in on the second betting round and then _because of the strength of his hand have very favorable odds to dribble the rest away on the third betting round after an opponent seems to have made a straight on the turn, well... that's another.

Buzz

Buzz

MilesDavis

05-26-2004, 12:11 AM

Buzz

05-26-2004, 12:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would be interested in alternative ways to play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Miles - Me too. At this point it's an enigma to me. I'm not criticizing your play at all.

I like your raise on the second betting round.... and yet.....

Is there a better way to play it?

Let me think about it some more. In the meanwhile I'm hoping one of our pot limit experts has an opinion.

Buzz

DPCondit

05-26-2004, 12:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What I’m thinking, and maybe I’m wrong, is that Miles may not have enough chips to support a pot sized raise on the second betting round.

To get _all his chips in on the second betting round would be one thing, and would maximize his chances of taking down the pot with his raise - but to get _most of his chips in on the second betting round and then _because of the strength of his hand have very favorable odds to dribble the rest away on the third betting round after an opponent seems to have made a straight on the turn, well... that's another.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are making some good points. It would of course, be much better if we could go all in on the flop. I'm still working that out. My aggressive style gets me into sticky situations a lot of times, but I'm generally a good enough escape artist that I do all right.

I could be wrong, but I'd just hate to give a straight draw a cheap look at the turn here, it just doesn't "feel" right to me. I would also certainly hate to "dribble away" chips on the turn, or any other street.

Would you suggest just limp on the flop, and then bail out on the turn to a big bet if a scary straight card or a hurtful low card hits? Then if you got helped on the turn I suppose you could jam there, it's probably safer. Then maybe you could bail on the river for half the cost if you didn't fill up?

You know though, if a straight card hits the turn you still have to call, even if you didn't pot the flop, unless it is a low straight card, but then you would have to fold to a huge bet even if you had potted the flop, and you might get lucky and get a free card if a low card hits.

In reality a number of straight cards may not actually help your opponent. One reason to get all in on the flop (if you could) is not just to fold everybody, but you're getting a big overlay on any calls.

If you haven't looked at the results yet, please note that I have referred to the opponents actual low hands a couple of times, and even used their exact hands for my simulations, so don't look at those until you are ready.

Also, Miles Davis, that can't be your real name, can it? Great musician, I do have a couple of his CDs.

MilesDavis

05-26-2004, 01:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Miles Davis, that can't be your real name, can it? Great musician, I do have a couple of his CDs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not real name. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I am a big music fan as well. My favorite Miles Davis albums: Jack Johnson, Silent Way, Kind of Blue, and Sketches of Spain (but I have about 20 others and enjoy them all).

DPCondit

05-26-2004, 01:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You know though, if a straight card hits the turn you still have to call, even if you didn't pot the flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, actually that's not true if you're heads up facing a pot sized bet, and you didn't pot the flop. Perhaps a reason to slow down. Or, better yet, just maybe play the hand aggressively against your looser opponents, and slow it down against the rocks.

Buzz

05-26-2004, 08:07 AM

Hi Don and Miles - This is one of those flops where no straight or better is yet possible - but where a straight or better will almost surely be possible by the time you get to the river. Nothing is there yet for high, but you know something is almost surely coming - that by the time you get to the river a straight or better will be possible.

And when a straight or better does become possible, you’ll want to hold the cards that make it happen. If the board straightens but doesn’t flush or pair, you want the two cards that make the nut straight. If the board flushes but doesn’t pair, you want two cards that make the nut flush. And if the board pairs, you want two cards that make a winning full house (or quads).

But immediately after this flop, you don’t know which of these will become possible.

With the top set, Miles has the inside track with the probable winner _if the board pairs. If Miles’ hand was a bit different, say TTJ9 instead of TT64, then he’d have enough outs to jam on the second betting round with just two opponents.

But although after the flop Miles _temporarily has the best hand, he won’t necessarily end up with the best hand on the river. That is the simple reality of the game of Omaha-8.

In a limit game with this kind of hand/flop unless you’re going to get at least five or six callers, you get better odds by simply checking and limping than by betting and raising. That’s because the odds against making your full house (or quads) on the turn are 38 to 7, or 5.4 to 1. If you really stretch the value of your ninth-nut low draw and fifth-nut back-door-flush draw maybe you can get the number of callers needed for favorable odds to jam down to five. Anything less and you’re bucking the odds, which is a bit like playing a slot machine - fun but probably not the way to win money.

I realize it goes against the grain to give the straight draws and low draws a free ride when you have flopped the top set. But the reality in a loose game is they’re going to call. You can charge them as much as possible for calling, but it costs you too - and you still probably will have to make a full house or better by the river to win for high.

I think a tight game is different because there’s a realistic chance you might drop all your opponents with a raise after the flop and take the pot. Seems like you would also have a better chance to drop your opponents with a pot sized raise in the pot-limit version..

And maybe if you have enough chips in your stack, you can.

Buzz

MilesDavis

05-26-2004, 11:45 AM

Buzz, I think you are thinking in part that everyone who has a piece of the flop is going to call, and in PLO8 that generally isn't the case.

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of those flops where no straight or better is yet possible - but where a straight or better will almost surely be possible by the time you get to the river. Nothing is there yet for high, but you know something is almost surely coming - that by the time you get to the river a straight or better will be possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Possible" is the key word here. If I let everyone draw cheap then I have to expect that I will get some of the straight callers with as little 8 outs (and the low draws, sorry to sound like a broken record). In limit there is nothing I can do about it and a double size bet likely won't make much difference. With PL I have the ability to make the price too high and protect my hand.

I was thinking about it last night, and knowing just my cards and the board, there is no hand that can be a favorite against me. The closest is AA34 double suited, but I am still a favorite against it.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=320542
pokenum -o8 6s 4c ts tc - ah ad 3d 4h -- th 2c 8d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ts 6s Tc 4c 242 679 141 0 6 436 0 0.565
Ad 3d Ah 4h 136 141 679 0 561 6 0 0.435

Having the best hand possible against any other hand seems a good reason to get money in and a good reason to isolate a hand that you can know is worse.

[ QUOTE ]
If Miles’ hand was a bit different, say TTJ9 instead of TT64, then he’d have enough outs to jam on the second betting round with just two opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lose equity with the hand you say I would be more likely to jam with and that is even with three total players.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=320551
pokenum -o8 9c js ts tc - ah 3s kh qd - 9s ac 7s jh -- th 2c 8d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Js Ts Tc 9c 123 370 180 116 0 0 0 0.418
3s Qd Ah Kh 47 53 613 0 390 36 9 0.350
9s 7s Ac Jh 38 127 423 116 96 330 9 0.232

vs

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=319997
pokenum -o8 6s 4c ts tc - ah 3s kh qd - 9s ac 7s jh -- th 2c 8d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ts 6s Tc 4c 206 362 304 0 140 226 0 0.469
3s Qd Ah Kh 50 62 604 0 337 53 0 0.318
9s 7s Ac Jh 30 242 424 0 18 372 0 0.212

Which makes sense to me as with two low cards on the board I would rather have a low draw since I already have a good shot at high.

Now playing limit I would obviously have to agree with your jamming hand as my low has no value as a better low is going to call even a raise. And your hand will play much easier on the turn and river. Also if out stacks are deeper, I don't know that I would want to give up the equity, but it would be easier to know where I was on later betting rounds assuming I couldn't get it heads up, so your jtt9 might play better. But I still like having a low draw since two to a low on board.

Buzz

05-26-2004, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are thinking in part that everyone who has a piece of the flop is going to call, and in PLO8 that generally isn't the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Miles - No. Actually I wasn't. Not at all.

[ QUOTE ]
In limit there is nothing I can do about it and a double size bet likely won't make much difference. With PL I have the ability to make the price too high and protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the way it seems to me also. How did it work here? (I still haven't looked at your results).

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking about it last night, and knowing just my cards and the board, there is no hand that can be a favorite against me. The closest is AA34 double suited, but I am still a favorite against it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about:
9d 7d 6h 3h?

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th
cards .......... scoop Hw Hl Ht Lw Lls Lt ... EV
Ts 6s Tc 4c ... 237 492 321 7 108 361 0 0.469
9d 7d 6h 3h .. 285 321 492 7 481 108 0 0.531

After the flop you have two opponents. How about:
Ah 5h 4s 2s and
8c 7c Jd 9d?

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th
cards .......... scoop Hw Hl Ht Lw Ll Lt .. EV
Ts 6s Tc 4c .. 106 291 375 0 9 381 0 0.299
As 2s 5h 4h ... 48 48 618 0 486 9 0 0.406
8c 7c Jd 9d .... 66 327 339 0 0 89 0 0.295

[ QUOTE ]
Which makes sense to me as with two low cards on the board I would rather have a low draw since I already have a good shot at high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too for one-on-one play against a random hand.

[ QUOTE ]
your jtt9 might play better

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see myself playing JTT9 much in O-8, but it is a more coordinated hand that TT64, and when it _does find a flop fit, it will be a better fit than TT64 can ever find. I just chose JTT9 as an example since it clearly has more outs with a T82 flop than TT64. And you need more outs to have favorable enough odds to push the betting in a limit game. (You obviously might push the betting for reasons other than having favorable odds to do so on the second betting round - it's just that the context was having favorable odds to call on the third betting round).

But of course we're talking pot limit here.

Buzz

Beavis68

05-26-2004, 06:59 PM

Wow, a lot of math, and a lot of good comments. I kind of got lost in it all.

I think the analysis is excellent for a ring-game, but for a touranment, I don't like the edge this hand gives, especially with marginal players that won't laydown a low draw.

In tournaments, I feel you have to be more guarded with the chips.

MilesDavis

05-26-2004, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about:
9d 7d 6h 3h?

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th
cards .......... scoop Hw Hl Ht Lw Lls Lt ... EV
Ts 6s Tc 4c ... 237 492 321 7 108 361 0 0.469
9d 7d 6h 3h .. 285 321 492 7 481 108 0 0.531

After the flop you have two opponents. How about:
Ah 5h 4s 2s and
8c 7c Jd 9d?

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 2c 8d Th
cards .......... scoop Hw Hl Ht Lw Ll Lt .. EV
Ts 6s Tc 4c .. 106 291 375 0 9 381 0 0.299
As 2s 5h 4h ... 48 48 618 0 486 9 0 0.406
8c 7c Jd 9d .... 66 327 339 0 0 89 0 0.295

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I completely missed those. This twodimes software is quite interesting. I have been putting hands into it and it has been quite informative. Thanks again Buzz.

Buzz

05-27-2004, 01:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I feel you have to be more guarded with the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Beavis - I completely agree. Thanks for keeping your eye on the ball.

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Wow, a lot of math, and a lot of good comments. I kind of got lost in it all.

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Guess I got sidetracked thinking about the odds. There's necessarily some math involved in thinking about the odds. No way around it.

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I don't like the edge this hand gives, especially with marginal players that won't laydown a low draw.

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Good point.

Buzz

Beavis68

05-27-2004, 04:58 PM

Buzz,

I am pretty new to Hi/Lo, and I the odds and math are extremely helpful and informative, it is always surpising to see what the actual odds are.

I like touranments, because I am kind of a "feel" player. I have have to think a lot at work, like to keep things simple when I play, however, I also play Omaha hi/lo in ring games, so this is all very helpful stuff that helps me look at the game in new way.

The authors I have read the most are Hellmuth and Cloutier/McEvoy. These guys don't get into odds a lot.

twodimes a favorite resource of mine too.