right time for a river checkraise?

[mike l.]

20-40 we were 4 handed. (people ask me why i dont like to post in the shorthanded forum, it's because that place is ALL about 6 handed party poker games and i know from experience that those are totally different then the real shorthanded games i play in). i have been playing pretty maniacally with some good results against these 3. weve been playing for hours.

i raise utg w/ 97o. cold called by the button who is an aggressive player with an okay understanding of shorthanded but numerous leaks of all sorts as well. blinds fold.

the flop is Q77. i bet and he calls.

the turn is A. i bet, he raises, i 3 bet, he calls.

river is a 4. should i go for the river checkraise?

[stoxtrader]

This really depends on the player. really.

Absent a read, I'd bet out and hope to be able to 3 bet again.

[skp]

Sounds like a sweet spot to go for two on the river (even in a ring game). The play would be more questionable if instead of the Queen, the common kicker was a low ranking card.

These types of river checkraises are very rare and should be tried more often by all of us (except where you might be playing in a small poker room for reasons unrelated to the profitability of the play when viewed in isolation)

Here's another good play that is rarely ever tried which I think is overlooked.

You openraise with say 88 in middle position and get one coldcaller downstream. Heads-up

The flop has one big card, one other card bigger than your pocketpair but not necesarily "big" in absolute terms, and a low card. Examples would be Q95, or KT3 or AJ7.

In any event, you bet the flop and he calls.

The turn pairs the top card on the flop.

The play is to go for the turn checkraise with your 88 rather than betting out which is what almost everyone does almost all of the time.

[andyfox]

Since the opponent merely called the flop bet, he doesn't have top pair but likely has second pair and will bet when the board pairs the top card?

[Steve Giufre]

Hey Mike,

I'm not sure, I might just bet out here. I think it's real player dependant. Is he the type that will bet a bare ace on the river for value even after your turn three bet? I think a lot of guys will check AJ and A10 here on the end. But if your up agaist the right oppenent, and you have been playing fast agaist him in previous hands, then I say go ahead. If he thinks you are the type to possibly 3 bet a marginal hand on the turn to try to get him to lay down, then I think its probably a good spot. I think it depends on how you have played your hands agaist him in past hands, and how he views you at the table.

[skp]

Yes...that's the basic premise on which the play is built.

It seems to me to be the most effective way of charging him the max when he is on a draw and (way) more importantly, it's also the most effective of making him dump a hand better than yours (eg. he dumps J9 on the Q93Q board once you checkraise).

[Steve Giufre]

Hey SKP,

I'm gonna give that a try. I've led out and folded to raise, and check folded in these spots but probably never check raised. The other reason I like it is that it will slow down aggresive players in future hands, which is starting to become very important in most of the games I'm playing in. I think it's good to let everybody know that they do not have the option of betting the turn with nothing everytime you have raised preflop, bet the flop, and decide to check the turn. (When you are head up out of position.) I think if you show everyone, that once in a while, they are gonna get checkraised if they get out of line, you will have the option of checking unimproved AK AQ on the turn sometimes, and will be able to let the player with position define his hand accuratly for you with a bet or with a check.

Also, I think if called on the turn, it's probably best to give up on the river in these spots. It's hard to see someone laying down a better hand for one more bet, and a draw obvioulsy cant pay off.

[Ulysses]

Yes. And you're correct. Better responses to this kind of post here. Better responses to online SH games there.

[Senor Choppy]

Against a made hand, if he checks you might lose a bet, but you gain from future hands when he might save you a river bet with a check. Against a draw (if there was a 2 flush on the turn perhaps), you can only gain a bet. I'm guessing it's almost 50/50 that he'll bet here, which is enough with the added benefit later, so I vote for checking.

[mike l.]

you guys nailed it on this one. i checked he bet, i raised he called he flashed an A. good one.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn pairs the top card on the flop.

The play is to go for the turn checkraise with your 88 rather than betting out which is what almost everyone does almost all of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, it's a good play. However, my results have been mixed, as I've been 3-bet with top trips on several occasions.

[Senor Choppy]

The only hand that would qualify would be K7.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
The only hand that would qualify would be K7.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, in the original hand. I was actually referring to skp's other example of using this play.