Hand for Review: KQs in the SB

[Warik]

I tried something(s) new in this hand and am wondering if I played it optimally. Comments most appreciated. Results to come.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 11.50 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero.</font>

[BigEndian]

What's the point of your check-raise, check-call line?

I like to bet a four-flush with big overcards into two PF limpers that I raised from the SB. I think it's very likely that you win this way on the flop or the turn without improving. If you are raised, this tells you good information unless the raisor has a previous history of raising draws agaisnt your kind of PF aggression - which is unlikely.

Attempting to CR with only two opponents is a fairly risky proposition and I don't see that CRing makes a big deal with this hand. There's no value in the CR if you get both to bet-call, and I don't think you really care in this instance if you are able to isolate a player or not. Additionally, if you whiff, you give up control of the action without learning more about your opponents' holdings.

Also, you posted zero information about your table, that's not very helpful for getting feedback.

- Jim

[Warik]

Endian,

The reason I posted no information about the table is because I had no information about the table. I was 3-4 tabling. You'll find that a lot of my hand posts don't have information on the table.

I like to bet the four-flush as well, but with only two opponents in the pot, I thought I could extract more if I hit my draw or paired up by check-raising the flop. If they both call, great. They didn't. I didn't hit anything on the turn, so I checked in hopes of getting a free card instead of semi-bluffing. I missed the flush but hit the straight. I thought my opponent would put me on a busted flush draw looking for free showdown, so I checked it to him. He bet as I expected and I made an extra BB.

If you consider all of the scenarios:

Betting the flop
All fold: +0 BB
One calls, one folds. Caller calls to river: +2.5 BB
Both call down to the river: +5 BB
Both call the flop/turn and fold the river if club hits: +3 BB

So I stand to make a max of 5BB assuming it's not raised and assuming both players stick around.

My Scenario:
Flop: +1 BB
Turn: +1 BB
River: +2 BB

By C/R'ing the flop and the river, I made 1 BB less than the ideal unraised sequence of events assuming both players would call me down to the end, which I think is unlikely.

Also, if I had bet the turn, bet the river and got called on both, I'm looking at +2 BB. Check-calling the turn gave me the opportunity to have it checked through and get a free card OR have the opportunity to check-raise the river, which in this case yielded me +3 BB.

I was not primarily trying to isolate anybody, but I disagree about there being no value in the check-raise. The only time there would be no value would be if I whiffed the river. Any other time it puts more money in the pot.

[dmk]

Without any information, my normal line would be:

complete SB, check/raise flop, bet out turn/river

Obviously it doesn't win as many bets as your hand did here, so if anyone could walk me through the problems w/ my line I'd appreciate it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BigEndian]

Whiffing on your CR is very painful here Warik and I think outweighs any other perceived benifits. The pot becomes small with respect to the turn bets, you have no idea where your hand stands and you're inviting player to take shots at you.

I think you're taking how one hand played out and reading too much into it.

- Jim

[Joe Tall]

complete SB

In such a loose-passive preflop game raising w/suited broadway hands is a must, especially KQs.

You should consider check-raising for muliple reasons not just a default play.

1. Where are the aggressive players to act according to you.
2. How many callers are there after the flop bet.
3. How many players are between you and flop better.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[dmk]

I'm actually a fan of the check-raise in this specific situation, after going through the hand a couple times. Assume you're the UTG+1, and the SB has check/raised the flop, and check/called the turn. Let's assume you have AJ (that seems to be a reasonable assumption?), do you not value-bet the river here? If you do, then you can see why the check/raise plays well here.

[Joe Tall]

Warwik,

Your check-raise heads up is fine if you think you have a chance taking it down w/a turn bet.

I think betting out on the flop is a better line as you only have two opponents instead of risking the flop getting checked through.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[dmk]

Thanks for the reply! Is the reason for raising here because you think you have the best hand pre-flop? Or so you can take control of the hand on the flop? Or both?

[BigEndian]

Both and the CR attempt with only two opponents runs the risk of losing the hand for no real need when you might take this hand down on the flop.

- Jim

[dmk]

What happens if you bet the flop and get called? Do you fire another barrel on the turn, or check/call?

[BigEndian]

Without resistance, I fire to show-down.

[Edit] To clarify, this is due to the coordinated texture of the board. I expect to be against a draw often enough if it's a single passive caller by the river. If the board is uncoordinated and I have two opponents (and probably one as well) on the river, I check and fold to a bet. There are multitudes of other scenarios.

- Jim

[dmk]

Excellent, thanks for the followups. Forgive me if I seem to start posting a bunch of retarded comments/questions. I've lurked for several months and decided it was about time to participate actively in order to improve my game further.

[Joe Tall]

Forgive me if I seem to start posting a bunch of retarded comments/questions

This is the only way to futher your poker education.

No Shame Posting,
Joe Tall

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Without any information, my normal line would be:

complete SB, check/raise flop, bet out turn/river

Obviously it doesn't win as many bets as your hand did here, so if anyone could walk me through the problems w/ my line I'd appreciate it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think yours has any problems at all.

I'd probably play it the same way as you otherwise (or perhaps just outright bet the flop if there were more limpers). I just tried playing this one differently than I normally would have. It worked out and was wondering if I got lucky or if it was a good play.