Playing BB head-to-head

[Peter_rus]

The one thing i can't understand in SH is - why do i need fold trash hands against typical steal raise while i'm last to act at a blind (SB folded). I do some calculations (Like AT test topic in a forum) and find out that even 27o is worth playing 1-1 against even early raise (77-AA,AK-AJ,KQ). In other words 27o has odds higher then 1:3.4 (in 5/10 PP). So why should i ever fold blind head-to-head?

[Schneids]

1. You'll lose a lot of money when you call with 72 and the flop is 974 and you don't know what to do, being out of position. If you intend to get to showdown what will happen frequently is you'll lose a lot when you run into JJ but win a little when you run into 66 or AK.
2. The worse your cards get, the more likely that even if you flop a hand that is winning, it'll be no good by the river.
3. You're out of position. Look at that flop in #1. What if you're opponent has AK but raises you on the flop or turn? Are you folding? Are you calling? So tricky. In general, you're going to get the worser end of it.
4. The lower your cards get the more likely you'll flop a hand and get it counterfeited.
5. You're out of position.
6. There's more betting rounds than preflop, and you're out of position.

That's why /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Peter_rus]

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1. You'll lose a lot of money when you call with 72 and the flop is 974 and you don't know what to do, being out of position. If you intend to get to showdown what will happen frequently is you'll lose a lot when you run into JJ but win a little when you run into 66 or AK.

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I often will check-raise this flop cause a typical raiser has a pair less time than high cards. Sometimes i check-raise this flop even if i miss.

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2. The worse your cards get, the more likely that even if you flop a hand that is winning, it'll be no good by the river.

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I find that most high cards folded on turn if miss.
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3. You're out of position. Look at that flop in #1. What if you're opponent has AK but raises you on the flop or turn? Are you folding? Are you calling? So tricky. In general, you're going to get the worser end of it.

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I check-raise flop and if he's 3-bet and is good-tricky player i follow calling till river if high cards don't hit the board, cause many tricky players push his AJ-AK like a high pair.

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4. The lower your cards get the more likely you'll flop a hand and get it counterfeited.

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Thats ok, but i can counterfeit by myself with 2 pairs, trips, trashy flushes etc. and i (in differ of raiser) WON'T BE READABLE. I saw turn and river war - 4 bet when i turned full to see a highest flush on showdown

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5. You're out of position.

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Yes (thats reasonable), but i have a random hand and raiser knew it which i would like to trick with and i almost aware of what cards has raiser.

I agree folding unsuited trash if there is cold coller exists but when it's head-to-head - why folding when you have correct odds? You can easily fold trash if you miss the flop but if you hit - it often payed. I often lead till river to see nothing but high cards at showdown. And i often get 3-bet turn when i had two pairs or trips and my opponent hits his overcard.

[Schneids]

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Quote:
1. You'll lose a lot of money when you call with 72 and the flop is 974 and you don't know what to do, being out of position. If you intend to get to showdown what will happen frequently is you'll lose a lot when you run into JJ but win a little when you run into 66 or AK.

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I often will check-raise this flop cause a typical raiser has a pair less time than high cards. Sometimes i check-raise this flop even if i miss.

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Your opponent may even 3-bet you when he misses.

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I find that most high cards folded on turn if miss.

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Some may raise. Some may call. And then if the river comes, you can't tell if their call means they have a hand or not. And you're stuck paying off the times they do, while probably not getting paid off the times they don't.

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I check-raise flop and if he's 3-bet and is good-tricky player i follow calling till river if high cards don't hit the board, cause many tricky players push his AJ-AK like a high pair.

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Many tricky players are smart enough to recoznize you are playing this way, before they get into a hand against you, and therefore won't spill chips unless they have you smoked. Your calldowns will eventually come back to haunt you.
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Thats ok, but i can counterfeit by myself with 2 pairs, trips, trashy flushes etc. and i (in differ of raiser) WON'T BE READABLE. I saw turn and river war - 4 bet when i turned full to see a highest flush on showdown

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I'm sure if I play 23o against a raise I'll eventually encounter a hand with a board of A2T22 against AA and get to put in multiple bets too. Just because it happens once doesn't make it a right play. I'm sure I'll spill an awful lot of bets chasing down this big hand, in the mean time.

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Yes (thats reasonable), but i have a random hand and raiser knew it which i would like to trick with and i almost aware of what cards has raiser.

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Be prepared for a lot of variance whilst not actually increasing your win rate any. I am one of the looser BB defenders in this forum, and even I would never, ever advocate defending with any two cards if HU against the raiser unless the raiser was a maniac, cap every street player, regardless of what his cards are.

[Peter_rus]

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Many tricky players are smart enough to recoznize you are playing this way, before they get into a hand against you, and therefore won't spill chips unless they have you smoked. Your calldowns will eventually come back to haunt you.

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Ok, i consider myself smart enough too to switch betting patterns while playing. I believe that all these jumps and tricks with good player (not all players are good obviously) will lead us to zero equity on postflop game - sometimes i will fold good hand sometimes him etc and i'll will get my preflop pot odds safely. Maybe i'm not right.

By the way i some kind loosy on BB but i don't play 27o but play any suited to late raise and any 1-gapper (35). If raiser is early i tighten up a bit. I just want to know (and to be sure) if i'm doing right not to play anything.

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Be prepared for a lot of variance whilst not actually increasing your win rate any. I am one of the looser BB defenders in this forum, and even I would never, ever advocate defending with any two cards if HU against the raiser unless the raiser was a maniac, cap every street player, regardless of what his cards are.

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I understood that a variance will be very high with that play but maybe overall equity will be higher because of gathering little pieces of correct odds. I don't want such variance and if i will be sure that the main reason not to play any hand is to reduce your variance - i will throw away from my mind thoughts about gathering pot odds.

[James282]

Hey Schneids and Peter - you're forgetting one of the biggest reason to fold trash hands. It is so easy for you to be dominated, in which case you will put in a lot of $ with a crushed hand. This is why you should pretty much always fold Ax Kx Qx Jx and Tx to respectable raises if you are not convinced by the other reasons. Against steal raises I will loosen up a bit and play Ax and perhaps Kx but in general I am pretty certain you aren't giving up any +EV by folding trash for a raise even when last to act. Unless you are an expert, I suspect that this play is incredibly -EV.
-James

[Peter_rus]

I would like not to overrate effect of domination while 1-1. At first - your A not always dominated as there are many hands to raise that contain no ace and flopping it will lead to victory as well as catching your weak kicker gathering 2 pair can be payed huge. By the way - even if you absolutely sure of your domination - you will make correct call for raise:

AJo vs A8o:

72.3 - 27.7

27.7*3.4-72.3 = +21,8%

[Schneids]

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Hey Schneids and Peter - you're forgetting one of the biggest reason to fold trash hands. It is so easy for you to be dominated, in which case you will put in a lot of $ with a crushed hand. This is why you should pretty much always fold Ax Kx Qx Jx and Tx to respectable raises if you are not convinced by the other reasons. Against steal raises I will loosen up a bit and play Ax and perhaps Kx but in general I am pretty certain you aren't giving up any +EV by folding trash for a raise even when last to act. Unless you are an expert, I suspect that this play is incredibly -EV.
-James

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With this comes reverse domination -- if your opponent takes big cards too far trying to hit them and gives excessive action when he does. You can win big pots with K8 against AK on a T84K2 board.

This would be one such argument in support of loose blind defense, even though it comes up infrequently.

[Peter_rus]

I've made some more improved analysis and find out that 27o suck out in a distance about -0,2SB additional to blind (not including blind) if i call a raise and play the way i refer in this topic. I assume raises on: AA;KK;,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ,TT,99,88,77,AJ,KQ,KJ,AT,66,55. (and suited too)

Other suggestion:
1. Raiser do automatic raise regardless of flop any time and not check flopping big.
2. If i _win_ - i win 2 additional SB on pair and 3 additional SB on two pairs (27 on 27J board e.g.) and trips.
3. I supposed that in 5% situations when the flop's total trash or scary/trash but i don't flop anything valuable my bluff will be succesful 50% of time.

I proceed with calling/raising about 35% flops, including:
1.47% - flops like 568,345 etc., making me two-way street drow. (check raise)
2.24% - flop is 3 suited. The suit fits one of my cards. (call)
2.2% - two pairs (check raise)
1.4% - trips (check raise)
10,9% - pair on flop where exists K or Q and no ace(call)
11,5% - pair on flop where are no A,K,Q (check raise)
5% - occasional bluff on flop which all less then T.

I playing with parameters of a hand to analize and find out that under 11.8% PFR - hand like 68 and ANY SUITED is borderline with my play head-to-head.

So i decided for myself when facing a rase head to head:

1. If i facing typical raise - calling liberally two suited if a hand has at least 1 card above 9. Offsuit connectors 89o+. (of course - any pair). Maybe to tighten up for seldom raiser or to reduce variance.

2. If racer ALWAYS attack blind or always rase from any position and then plays agressively - i will play ANY hand hoping to overcome -EV when i flopped big.