Heads-up help please!

[William Wilson]

In 30 Sng HU matches varying between the $5.50 and $22 levels on Stars, I've won just 53%.

I've realized I have pretty solid fundamentals for a beginner against a full ring and even shorthanded, but I have no real clue heads-up.

My basic strategy is to raise first in with any Kx or Ax starting hand, and to go all the way (especially shortstacked) with any A9+, pair, or solid face-card combination.

Can anyone point me toward a good thread or good book with HE strategy or provide some of their own advice? This is costing me money.

Thanks in advance,
Bill

[RPatterson]

I say screw heads up matches. You never know if your opponent is a moron who will call all-in with 3rd pair or if he plays weak and will fold top pair ace kicker.. And luck is such a factor. Screw heads up matches. It's the game where a bad player has the best shot at beating a good one.

[William Wilson]

To clarify, I shouldn't have said heads-up matches. These stats are from one-table SnGs where I've reached the final two.

Should have made that clear,

Bill

[eastbay]

You have to consider stack sizes going heads-up for your 53% to have any meaning. If you came in outchipped 2:1 on average, that's an excellent showing. If you came in outchipping 2:1 on avg, it's a terrible showing.

Reaching heads-up with a lead is as big a part of winning as is your HU play itself. Something to think about.

eastbay

[William Wilson]

Regretfully, I don't have stats for stack size, although I'm guessing I'm behind about 60-65 percent of the time because it seems I'm usually battling on the bubble. Maybe these are just the ones I recall more clearly ... who knows?

In general, however, I think it would help to have confidence heads-up, to have a sense that I know what I'm doing.

Is there anything out there you would suggest, or is it all just experience?

[eastbay]

Grain of salt: I'm no HU guru, but...

I do know that with party's structure, if you move in every single hand before the flop, you could only be beat something like 55-57% of the time no matter what your opponent does to counter you.

On the other hand, if you wait for a premium hand to either raise or call, your opponent can very easily destroy you something like 90% of the time.

The moral of the story is that it's much better to be too aggressive than not aggressive enough. When in doubt, throw your chips in.

eastbay

[Lori]

Playing play money heads up will be a reasonable way to learn to cope with this.

Sit down short stacked and tell yourself you 'win' if you double before you bust.
You could even tell your opponent your plan so they know what their target is.

Although play money generally sucks, in the high blind short stack scenario, the crazy-aggressive play money fishies are actually surprisingly close to good play.

Lori

[mackthefork]

No limping, no all ins before the flop, raise about 75% of the time for 2.5 BB, steal a bit, do exactly the same with good hands as bad and you will get plenty of action when you have something, after the flop is much more dependent on the other player imo.

Regards ML

[DrPhysic]

WW,

I don't want to start a flame war and opinions vary widely and run hot on how to play HU, but here are some ideas. Use only as applicable.

There is not enough in publication on how to play HU, but there is some. SS NLHE “Short Handed play” P510. Ciaffone, Improve Your Poker, “Shorthanded Poker”, p36. Ciaffone, Middle Limit Holdem Poker, “Shorthanded Play”, P306. Sklansky, Theorey of Poker, ch 21 “Heads Up on the End”, P199 (Only partially applicable to HU play, read in context), Sklansky & Malmuth, HEPFAP, Part 5, “Playing Short Handed”, p183. Sklansky, HEP, “Head Up vs Multi-Way”, p70 (this is really about multi-way, you have to invert his logic). Suzuki, Poker Tournament Strategies, “Playing Short-Handed Poker”, p103. Sklansky, TPFAP, “Down to 2 Players”, p86. There is a reference in Vorhaus, Killer Poker, but at the moment I can’t find it. If others have more references than these, I would like to have them.

Eastbay’s concept of “What were your stacks when you started?” is important. Start a spreadsheet, and record your stack, opponent’s stack, and results every time you get HU in an SNG. If you are winning 53% starting with 1/3 of the chips on the table, your problem is not your HU play, it is the size of your stack when you get to HU. Solve the right problem.

I disagree with Patterson . Play the HU matches on PokerStars. Yes there are some lousy players as well as some good ones. You have to learn how to beat them too. Playing low level SNG's on party, you will occasionally end up against an idiot HU. Consider that by the playing standards of a 215 game, probably everybody in my 11 is an idiot including me. (Not quite so much since I have moved up to $33).

I have played at least one HU match per day in the range of $5.5, 11, 22, at first HU, later 4 player match HU for the last 4 months. I now have more confidence on short table (3players) or HU in SNGs than I do in the entire rest of the game. When we get down to short we are now playing MY game. I did not have that knowledge or confidence four months ago. BTW, my current weakness, that I am trying to improve, is semi-short table 4 or 5 players.

Here are the playing guidelines I use HU. Note GUIDELINES, not rules. And they have to be played slightly tighter short table than HU.

My current guidelines to HU:

Never limp, always raise the BB to find out if he will fold.

Bet any pair, any A, any K for value pre-flop

HU is a big card game – Suited Connectors smaller than QJs are useless.

Bet when any A or K hits the board. (regardless of what you hold)

Bet if opponent checks

On a bluff or semi bluff bet, do not be afraid to lay them down to a large and believable re-raise.

Tighten or loosen based on read of opponent and number of opponents.

Be aggressive

If open raise > 1/3 of stack, Push or Fold

More ½ pot and pot size bets

Be wary of pair or 3 flush on board. De-rate hand slightly to 2 flush on board.

Push, Do Not Call a Push (without NUTS)

Do not call all-in ReRaise (Without NUTS)

Give Action to get Action (Do not be Leotard Larry, too tight to squeak)

Bully with big stack


Premium hands are hard to come by. You must not wait for premium hands (first 3 columns of DS’s limit holdem starting hand chart as an example) in this game. If you do, you will be eaten alive by somebody not afraid to bluff. Tight is good. Winning is better. If you are not playing hands like 22, A2o, K3s, Q8s, J9s your stack is being eaten up. Likewise if you are playing hands like 98s, T9s, JTo, 67s, you are playing hoping for a great flop that happens once in a blue moon. This is not a small card game. Go back and look up all the references in TOP, Ciaffone Improve Your Poker, and all the other basic books and look for the hands they say play well in a large field. Then invert the logic: Don’t ever play those hands short or HU.

I hope this is a help. I well realize that somebody is going to argue with all or part of my logic. That’s ok. These are just my ideas, that does not make them right, or applicable all the time, or for all players. However, I have enough confidence in them that if anyone wants to play a little HU after my vacation, send me a PM. (That offer excludes Lori, Cris, and William. I do not wish to become an ATM).

Doc

[William]

I have enough confidence in them that if anyone wants to play a little HU after my vacation, send me a PM. (That offer excludes Lori, Cris, and William. I do not wish to become an ATM).

This is pure discrimination!
How do I start a legal action?

Abd BTW, I disagree with you about the small suited connectors. these are great cards to limp with. The times you do hit, the deception value is very good.

I also would be carefull about raising the BB every time. Most good players will call and after that you are the first to act and will normally lose. Most of your wins come from the time you are last to act.

As a rule, avoid doing "the same" everytime, as your oponent will very quickly adapt to that situation.

Are you sure we can't play a game now and then? /images/graemlins/grin.gif (just joking, you are no longer a profitable opponent)

William

[DrPhysic]

Wm,

I agree especially against only one opponent who is getting a read on just YOU. Doing almost anything the same over and over is just asking for it. Considering that some of the things in my list are pure unadulterated bluffs, you don't want to get caught very often, or you want to make sure that once in a while when you (as a forinstance) min raise the BB, you do it with KK or AA. That makes you real believable when you do it with Q8s or worse.

If I am the sb, and can minraise with 78s (a pure bluff in this game), catch you with nothing, win the blinds right there, I will do it as often as I think I can get away with it. If I am playing somebody like yourself who will re-raise 3BB with 32o just to see IF I WILL FOLD, then I can't do it very often. It's all about reads.

We can play a game now and then, if you want to come down to $10 or 20. I excluded you three because a) you're all friends that I can gig a little bit, b) you're all known good players, and c) you all play at 7 to 10 times the buyin that I play at this time. Which is pretty good actually, it used to be 20 to 40 times!

Doc

[golden goose]

I'm new to this site but have been very succesful at the 50 nl sng at party. The problem when it comes to crunch time is that the blinds are so damn big. This really does reduce the things your can do considerably. Your strategy of kx Ax or any pair is probably adaquate. My suggestion is the following.

If you are behind, dont be afraid to bluff big, wtih all your chips. Chances are if you have less than 30% of the chips you are going to lose anyway so you might as well go down swinging. Its imperative that you even the score somewhat NO MATTER WHAT you have.

For example, If i have 7000 in chips out of 10,000, blinds are 250 and 500. I would have a hard time calling a 3000 dollar raise, regardless of my cards, becasue I am such a favorite to win. If you do get called, and lose, dont sweat it becasue you were probably going to lose anyway.

The reason I suggest bluffing big is as follows. If you only have 3000 and you raise 1500(3X the BB), your essentially pot commited. If you fold to a reraise you better hope you opponet is a bozo or get really lucky. You have to use your moderate stack size as a weapon, while it still is one.

[William Wilson]

Doc,

Thanks for such a strong response, and the time you donated to construct it.

One question: Does it make sense to only call all-in with the nuts, when any piece of the flop has some value? This could be one of my leaks HE, but isn't TPGK a monster here, even against somewhat frightening boards?

Also, what do you think about slowplaying top pair, regardless of kicker, hoping your opponent will catch second pair on the turn and think it's the best hand?

All (OK, almost all) advice on this thread is well taken. Maybe I will play one of you meat-eaters heads-up, just as a thanks /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[DrPhysic]

Not such a big deal to write the response to your post. References from some books I can reach, and a copy of a word doc that generated the list I am looking at. (BTW, there is a different list for games other than HU).

[ QUOTE ]
Does it make sense to only call all-in with the nuts, when any piece of the flop has some value?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand your question, or perhaps you have mis-understood something in my list. I will try. If I am answering the wrong question try again.

Remember that most of the hands you get in holdem are lousy. Therefore most of the other guy's hands are lousy too. Play accordingly until he tells you differently.

TPGK is a super hand in a HU game. It is USUALLY, but NOT necessarily the best hand at the table. Do not overlook the pair, 2 flush, or god forbid 3 flush on the board or the monster pocket pair the other guy can have. It depends on how big TP is, too. A 55 TP isn't big enough. We will assume your TP is face cards. You want to bet this hand on the flop hard enough that a drawing hand can't call, and preferably, if you can, weakly enough that you still have some chips if he does have a monster. We will assume you and your opponent are the remaining two of 10 at an SNG and he has enough sense to play poker which ain't always the case. All in is not necessarily the end all of betting here. It depends on your stack and his, and the size of the blinds. Read the stacks. If you are about even, a 2 or 3 BB bet may be better than all in. If you lose you are still in the game. If he has most of the chips, you may have to go all in. If you have most of the chips, maybe you are in a position to put him all in, and still be in control should you lose.

When you do get the NUTZ, you should often bet it right out. Not a wimpy min raise bet, but 3-5BB from levels starting at 1. Make the guy that wants to draw or think their pocket pair is high pay for the privilege of being educated. This does two things: a) it makes you believable when you bet right out with a lesser hand on a semi-bluff, and b) it sets you up to slow play a big one. But it is advisable to be known for betting right out most of the time when you have a good to great hand. You can't be sneaky all the time.

Now when you get heads up and draw a pair of pocket aces, you can call or minraise and slow play the big pair. Yes, letting him draw is a terrific idea if you have a rep for playing ABC poker, and he does not suspect he is about to bet himself into a corner. Please do not, however, come crying to 2+2 about how you got your aces cracked if you do slow play them. You take the risk when you do it.

Read William's response to my post carefully. You cannot afford to become predictable when you are the only guy at the table the opponent has to learn to read.

Most of the above is Bob Ciaffone Middle Limit Holdem and PL&NL Poker. Both good reads. Some from Vorhaus Killer Poker.

And please, do not make the mistake of reading my opinion as gospel. I am a learner, too. (I hope I remain smart enough to keep that designation permanently.) Listen to other opinions, and try things until you learn what works for you.

Doc