Playing vs the all in

[ZootMurph]

OK, I played in 4 MTTs this weekend... a 50+5, 30+3, 20+2, and 200+15 on Party. In all, I made no money finishes. Also, in all but one, I was beaten by an all in bluff which drew out on a top pair.

In the 200+15, I went out like 857th out of 911 or something. I raised preflop with TT, and was reraised the minimum amount, which I called. T63 rainbow, I throw a pot sized bet and my opponent goes all in. My opponent has AA and catches an A on the river, and I'm down to 55 chips. Next hand, I lose TT to QQ (10s weren't very good to me, LOL).

Then, in 50+5, blinds 100/200, 7 from the money. I have AA in CO. Guy to my right, who has me covered, goes all in. I call. He is trying to buy the blinds with K5o. Hits trip 5s to take me out.

Same situation in 30+3, basically. I have QQ vs KJo (chip leader who was playing every hand and throwing a big bet on the flop to try to win it). I go all in with rags on the flop, he calls. River is K, I'm out.

20+2. 25/50 blinds. I raise to 300 after UTG limper in MP3 with 88. UTG only caller. Rainbow rags includes an 8. UTG goes all in. I call. UTG has AKs, gets runner runner flush to win it. I'm down to next to nothing.

Now, my question: Have I just had a real unlucky weekend, or should I be avoiding these all in situations, even with by far the best of it? I've heard players say that they avoid going all in as much as possible, regardless of the situation. Some pros will speak proudly of only going all in once or twice in a tournament.

Basically, this happens A LOT to me. Is it like this for others, or do you stay away from all in situations?

Thanks for the advice/thoughts in advance.

[Jason Strasser]

There have been a number of things said by poker players. The thing I try to remember is this: if a bad player gets lucky, he will almost always lose, and he will almost never make as much money as he could've. If a good player gets lucky, he will win or do very well.

Each situation described above you were the heavy favorite. Some situations were closer than others. But there is NO way you can back down in any spot described above. This is simply bad luck. The TT hand was perfectly played. The AA hand was perfectly played. The QQ hand was perfectly played. The 88 hand was perfectly played.

You could not have played the hands any better. Welcome to the world of MTTs. There are some things you can't control.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
Then, in 50+5, blinds 100/200, 7 from the money. I have AA in CO. Guy to my right, who has me covered, goes all in. I call. He is trying to buy the blinds with K5o. Hits trip 5s to take me out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to know how you propose to avoid this all-in situation.

[eastbay]

Basically, this happens A LOT to everybody. Get used to it.

And no, for you to get away from any of those situations would be absurd. This "staying away from all-in" advice only applies to marginal situations. Not sets or AA preflop.

eastbay

[37offsuit]

I know that a lot of people talk about the odds of this or the odds of that, but the reality is that the odds dictate that at times the best hand preflop or post flop or on the turn will still lose. In a ring game, these poor odds plays are what keep the fish fishing and so they're a bit easier to take.

In a tournament, if you get pocket aces 7 times, the odds say you should lose one time and if that time happens to be with all your chips in, then you're done. I don't know off hand what the odds were for a K coming with two cards left against your Q's, or for the ace on the river against your set of tens.

The point isn't whether these are bad beats, obviously, all of them fit that category. The point is that over the course of a long MTT, you're going to catch some "bad beats" because the odds dictate that they will happen. So your job is to minimize the damage of these bad beats when you can.

The only time I saw that you could have done that is with your QQ hand. You gave up a psychological edge here, I think, one that many people do by pushing on the flop with an over pair or top pair/top kicker instead of waiting for the turn. Usually big stacks early in a tournament are from people chasing and getting lucky. That means you know that they're going to chase with something like over cards to a low flop. So why risk all your chips on the flop when they still have these over card outs? Instead look to extract some chips and then make them have to decide on the turn whether they want to keep chasing.

I really enjoyed reading TJ Cloutier and Tom McEvoy's Tournment book and it's helped me in these situations. It calls for a more conservative style of play so that you can steadily pick up chips while not putting your entire tournament on the line many, many times in order to win. If you get away from the coinflips as much as possible, I think you'll do better.

I think with your sets that if you get put all in with top set, you're gonna have to call obviously. But if you can throw out a decent bet on the flop, and then push on the turn where your opponent only has one card to come to beat you, you may find them folding more in these spots.

That is why tournament pros don't like to get all in if they can help it. They know that if they go all in 6 times during a tournament, they have to win all 6 of those hands or they're done. Many would rather throw away a probable winner 2 or 3 times over the course of a tournament than leave it up to "luck", "fate", or "odds".

[kenewbie]

The truest words spoken in this forum in ages. All-in's are the plague.

k

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then, in 50+5, blinds 100/200, 7 from the money. I have AA in CO. Guy to my right, who has me covered, goes all in. I call. He is trying to buy the blinds with K5o. Hits trip 5s to take me out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to know how you propose to avoid this all-in situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. People who can't stand to get their chips in as a big favorite should quit poker. There are rare exceptions when you don't want to do this due to a strange prize structure or a very short stack, but the situations described here are nothing close to to those exceptions.

There are ways to avoid having your opponent suck out on you: Have the worst hand. Fold the nuts.

When you call all-in with AA, you are not certain to double up. However, that gamble is a lot better than most of the risks you have to take in a tournament. By accepting these risks, you decreases the risks you might have to take as a short stack with no cards and no bluffing power.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
The truest words spoken in this forum in ages. All-in's are the plague.

k

[/ QUOTE ]

Pass up allins with by far the best of it and you won't go far.

[ZootMurph]

So the basic consensus is that you have to make the plays when they are there...

I could whine about everything else, but I'm not gonna continue a forum trend of whining about bad beats. I'll keep playing this way and things will turn around.

Thanks to all for your replies.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
So the basic consensus is that you have to make the plays when they are there...

[/ QUOTE ]

You should dream of getting to call all-in with the nuts, AA preflop, top set on the flop with no made hands possible, etc. Far more frequently, you should try to figure out how to get your opponents to put more in the pot when you are a huge favorite. What 37offsuit said about trying to get your opponents to fold with a handful of outs was nonsense.

An exception might be if you sit next to someone with a huge pile of chips and you can palm a stack at a time. Maybe that's more profitable than playing a hand. (For the humor impaired, I'm not serious.) Otherwise, of course you call with the nuts.

[37offsuit]

I do believe that there are times when a push is the best move, but I don't think it is in slightly possitive EV situations or even moderately possitive EV situations. I either push to make someone fold their hand because I don't want them drawing out on me and I think it is likely that they will fold their drawing hand to an all in bet or because I have the absolute nuts and I think someone is likely to call my all in. Other than that, I'd rather rely on my ability to read the situation given the cards available, what may come out and how my opponent(s) reacts to my actions and the new cards on board.

When you push you take away all of your options. After that the cards play and you're taking your chance with odds. It is very rare that someone pushes or calls all in with a hand that has no chance of beating yours (or doesn't already have an advantage), so if you're pushing or calling all ins frequenlty in a tournament, sooner or later you're bound to get knocked down or out.

Sure, it's easier to play this way. If you go all in early and often and catch lucky, maybe you get yourself a big stack that will get you through to the money at times. You'll also bust out early frequently as well. Unless you can get lucky early and then really change gears, the only way you're going to get to the top spots is by getting extremely lucky.

I never said not to get more money in the pot. I'd venture that an immediate all in will likely push good players off more pots where you might have been able to get some more chips out of their stacks. I'd also venture a guess that the times you can make a timely fold (when the third flush card comes off and you suspect that your opponent has made their hand for instance) will cut down on your bad beat stories significantly.

If your style of play works for you, that's great. I just think you're being a little niave thinking that there is only one way to play this game.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
When you push you take away all of your options. After that the cards play and you're taking your chance with odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a way to win tournaments without getting lucky? You must gamble at some point. When you have the nuts, take advantage of it. Call all-in gleefully, as in the OP's examples of calling all-in with top set and AA preflop. If you push with the nuts and your opponent calls, you have nothing to regret.

[ QUOTE ]
It is very rare that someone pushes or calls all in with a hand that has no chance of beating yours (or doesn't already have an advantage), so if you're pushing or calling all ins frequenlty in a tournament, sooner or later you're bound to get knocked down or out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there an alternative that ensures you win the tournament? Hint: No. So the fact that you sometimes lose is not a reasonable argument against getting your chips in as a huge favorite. If you get the chips in as a favorite consistently, you should not expect to win every tournament you play, but you will win a disproportionate share of them. You will win far more than if you fold the nuts to avoid the bad beats.

You talked about the danger of getting all-in 7 times with AA (preflop), suggesting that you bust out too much. This so hideously wrong that I assumed it was a troll. The danger is that you don't get enough chips in and waste the tremendous amount of luck that you have had by getting AA 7 times in a tournament, so you are forced to take much worse risks later. If you could bust out half of the time and get 10 times the chips the other half, would you do it? I think any realistic player would take that gamble instantly unless a lot were riding on a last-longer bet.

Just before the final table in one recent tournament, everyone folded to the BB, who showed AA. Three hands later, I (min)reraised that player all-in with AA and was called. Before the board was dealt, which of us do you think was happier with how AA had worked? I was the one in danger of busting out, but I was ecstatic. I think my neighbors heard when I saw his bet. Folding would have cost several buy-ins worth of equity. (I never had many chips, but after doubling up I coasted into second place out of 967.)

[ QUOTE ]
...cut down on your bad beat stories significantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to collect bad beat stories. For every time I put the bulk of my money in as a big favorite and lose, I put my money in as a big favorite and win several times. Every proper bad beat story is worth a lot.

[37offsuit]

Well, I disagree with you. As I said, I think that there are times to push and times not to. I agree that for both my style and yours, you need to get lucky. I also never said I ignore odds completely, or that I would get pushed off of a nut or near nut hand simply because someone went all in. I believe going all in is just another tool in the shed though, not the only one, or even the most important one.

I even said of all the hands posted originally, there was only one that I wouldn't either push or call all in.

I wasn't talking about the dangers of AA, I was merely pointing out that if you push on every plus EV situation through the course of the tournament, I'd venture you'll bust out sooner rather than later. You have to pick your spots, which I'm sure you probably agree with.

I prefer to leave myself options when I play, that way when a good hand goes south I can get away from it, rather than just being left watching the cards flip over.

[Bernas]

I have to say that I agree with most of what you have said. Especially early in a tournament. Let the loose canons push all the time. Most of them end up giving their stack away about midway through the tournament.

I try to avoid going all in before the flop. In my opinion the real skill is playing after the flop. Anybody can push all the time, and for the weaker players it is the right play to push before the flop a lot. Even Sklansky says that in his tournament book.

Having said that, I definitely wouldn't have been able to avoid the All-In with pocket AA.

Just my opinion.

[ZootMurph]

Excellent debate... that's the stuff I was looking for. I have new insights now.

Thanks!!

[askkkkk]

First of all, those were very unlucky situations. But you can still improve in each situation. First of all raising with a TT is usually a weak play made by weaker players as pointed out By David Skalansky in his Tournament Play book. Usually u'll win a small pot, get called by overcards, or higher pairs and be even money or a big underdog. So that is just a calling hand most of the time, and foldable in all ins vs big stacks. Unless u're shortstacked that is. Flop play was correct, although u'd usually want to be the guy pushing the envelop, when guys play back at u, it takes wind from under ur sail. U always want to be the aggressor in those situations. But yes, pretty much every situation u got screwed on majorly. But as u know poker is a game where gambling and luck are big factors, and skill is minimized in tournament play because u can't reload and win back ur money from some idiot who plays crap and gets lucky. Just keep playing smart and u'll be sitting at the final table in no time.

PS: PS I apologize for this SN, but i tried 100 and out of frustration made this one, apparently every1 has even 'asdfwdfdwf' SN, so ..moderator may feel free to assign any SN he wishes to me to replace this one. No offense meant to any1.