kk questions

[poorbus96]

This is the first hand I've posted. I been reading alot and recently lurking on the forum. I picked this one because kk is certainly one I need to know. I think it should be one of the easiest hands for me to play and have some specific questions but would like to hear your opinions on my play here. Thanks

Party Poker $5+1 Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+2 (t950)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t845)
MP3 (t835)
Hero (t1060)
Button (t775)
SB (t785)
BB (t695)
UTG (t650)
UTG+1 (t650)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB, t205) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.33 BB, t310) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (10.33 BB, t310) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.3333333333333 BB (t370)
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 12.33 BB (t370), between Hero and UTG.</font>

[poorbus96]

<font color="blue">Results:
UTG shows Jd 9h (three of a kind, nines).
Hero shows Kd Kc (two pair, kings and nines).
Outcome: UTG wins 12.33 BB (t370). </font>

So is a check on the turn here just pathetic?
Should I only think opponent has me beat with a re-raise on the flop?
With the pre-flop raise I didnt think UTG would have J9o...

[tolbiny]

alright, i dont play limit tournies but i do play 5-10- so i do play some limit games.

the biggest probelm here is the turn check. You are getting betinto here by an ace on the river 99% of the time, and you just gave a weaker hand a free card. Bet the turn, i think you probably have to fold to a checkraise unless the guy is pretty insane. And then i would check behind on the river.

[Victor]

kk when an ace flops is very hard to play. Folding when its a large field especially at loose tables is ok. However, since you have position it is probably better to raise. Fold if 3-bet. Fold if bet into on the turn.

Now, you need to realize that, you can only put one more bet into this pot on the turn and river combined. I would bet here though and fold to a checkraise and fold to a river bet. The reason for betting here, is that you give your opponent a chance to either fold (the pot is big) or make a mistake with a worse hand.

If you check, you will probably face a bet on the river nearly 100% of the time. It is hard to lay down at that point especially with the big pot. I would proly call and hate it.

[peiper]

Although I'm trying very hard to become a tight/aggressive player, I'm obviously still weak tight.

I would have folded when the UTG bet out on the flop. My reasoning for this would be that at the lower levels on Party too many people play Ace anything. Plus, given the blinds it sounds like it was still early in the tournament and I won't burn chips early if I think I might be beat.

As far as checking the turn, I don't think you could have gotten UTG to lay his hand down so you saved yourself a big bet at least. He sucked out on you, but he was going to stay in whether you bet or not.

[salty]

Bet the turn,check the river, more than likely the same result with this guy but against others when this happens again some will fold.

[tolbiny]

I doubt that you saved a bet this way even if UTG would have called, you three bet preflop, raised the flop, bet the turn, who in the world wouldnt go for a checkraise on the river?
The other thing is that you lose theoretical money this way. if you bet the turn and he calls you should probably check behind on the river. you pick up 1 bb for every time he doesnt improve. if you check the turn and he doesnt improve he checks into you on the river. Are you value betting here- i think the likelyhood you are against an A or he will fold kills youre value bet-

[poorbus96]

Thanks for the replies.

I was pretty sure the check on the turn was a weak play. I just have to get used to being aggressive and realize, as has been pointed out that the position gives me all the reason to bet because of the ability to check behind on the river. Or fold to a re-raise.

Another reason to bet is the free card,,,crap thats one of the first lessons.

I still think I would have lost this hand either way, dont think UTG was folding,,,but next time with this situation I will bet the turn and check behind or at least I'll try. And if they have the ace I guess my reaction will depend on how much pressure they show.

As far as the chips at this stage it was early, think it was only 5th or 6th hand. And I am also trying to play aggressive thats why when I get dealt kk I play it this way,,,dangit shoulda bet the turn /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[spazm6666]

Well let me say this about that. A definite weak point in my game has been to slow down on the turn when my opponent played back at me on a flop raise. And just like you, I have given my opponent the chance to outdraw me which they have done enough times that I know I need to change my play up a bit. Now I know it takes some cajones to fire that second pile of chips in the middle but look at the play of the hand.

Your opponent didnt cap pre flop, so if they have an ace it isn't strong. By checking the turn, you show weakness and give a free card. Finally, since yo are playing limit you can make that turn bet with the chance to take it down right there. You are going to call one river bet anyway so make your play on the turn and give yourself the best chance to win the hand when you probably have the best it judging by your opponents play.

[Lori]

If you are a winner, or a small loser, you really would do better playing $10+1.

Lori