AKos or low pocket pair in EP near bubble

[jwvdcw]

Playing in last nights multi tourney at Party, I began to think about this question. I have no idea how to play A-Kos or a low pocket pair in EP if I have a medium-short stack and the money is near. Consider the following rather extreme example:

You have 4000 chips. Average is 6000. Blinds are at 300/600. 110 people left with 100 spots paying, so you can probably eek into the money with some patience and stealing a blind here and there, but obviously you'd like to attack other medium stacks when you are in LP in order to do this.

Both blinds are huge stacks. BB has 25000, SB has 20000. They both are aggressive yet smart players.

Full 10 person table.

You get A-Kos UTG. What do you do?

What about pocket 8s UTG. What do you do?

The thing is, as good of a hand as A-K is, there are 13 hands that are favored over it, which means that theres a decent chance that someone at the table has you beat.

With pocket 8s, I'd be even more afraid, since there are a number of 50-50 hands out there that might call as well as a few hands that dominate you.

In my opinion, its either push all in or fold with both of these hands, as you don't really want to be messing around here.

[bigfishead]

With the 8's it's a clear muck. The blinds have too much and your edge over any 2 will do is very small. Your position sucks, your in a full table, etc, etc, etc.

Ako....shove, limp, muck.....up to you. But remember if you shove you have the large stacks effectively behind you preflop as they are in the blinds.....which is fine...but if you limp you must be prepared to shove with any favorable flop, or check raise all-in preflop to any small raisers. You dont want to be faced with calling a bet on the flop and forcing yourself to muck to a bluff-draw bet either.

I tend to either shove or muck with the AK.

[sdplayerb]

Are there antes? If so, i am pushing in with either.
I'm definitely pushing in with AK either way. Limping into the money is useless, it is like 2x the buyin, you aren't playing for that right?

And some of your points are offbase.
you say 13 hands have you beat. well, 22, 33, 44 aren't calling you, so don't count those. Really nothing less then 99 should be considering it. Plus AA and KK are half as likely as usual due to your having AK.

Now on the 88 side..how many hands that are coinflips are calling you? Only AK should even consider it.

Really only TT or better should be calling here. You do the math on the likelihood of somebody having it. It is less than 1/4, i'm pushing in with 88 here, and probably 77.
If i don't play it then don't play my blinds i am down to 3,100 and becomes really tough to put pressure on people.
Heck, i'm pushing in with KQ, AQ, AJ.
It is tough for people to call without a huge hand.
Go out swinging. When you get much lower than 6x the BB you lose some leverage.

When I pushin with 6-10x the BB, i probably get called less that 15% of the time.

[patrick dicaprio]

it is a close call, but one thing to keep in mind is that you want to either win it right there or see all five cards if you have AKo. It does you no good to raise and have to fold if questionable cards flop. So if you do play it you have to push in.

Pat

[jwvdcw]

I agree with your aggressive nature, but I think that you underestimate the importance of position in this situation a little. If I were in LP, I would easily push with either of these hands, but UTG makes it harder.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
it is a close call, but one thing to keep in mind is that you want to either win it right there or see all five cards if you have AKo. It does you no good to raise and have to fold if questionable cards flop. So if you do play it you have to push in.

Pat

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree that its either all in or fold here.

[sdplayerb]

well position means a lot less when you are already allin.
And I completely take being UTG into account when doing the math.
Also, when you make a move from UTG, your opponents have to take into account the early position you are doing it from.
It is even more important to make a move here since you are in the BB next.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]

It is even more important to make a move here since you are in the BB next.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally disagree. Imo when you are 10 spots away from the money, 4000 chips with 300/600 blinds is plenty to ease into the money. I'd much rather sit back and let guys like you be aggressive and get knocked out/knock someone else out at this point.

So what if the blinds pass you...you're still at 3100 and then can steal a pot when you're in LP and everyone folds to you, thus decreasing the odds that someone behind you has a good hand by leaps and bounds.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
22, 33, 44 aren't calling you, so don't count those. Really nothing less then 99 should be considering it

[/ QUOTE ]

He said the blinds had 20K and 25K to your measly 4K. They won't call with any pair and a wide variety of other crap? I think they call with all sorts of stuff. I know I will with that kind of stack in the blinds and a 4K all in.

But I push with 88 or AKo easy. Too strong not to try to double with and a short stack.

[Tosh]

I'm pushing AK, not sure about 8's. Probably fold though.

[DOTTT]

What's your goal for the tournamnet? If you just want to get in the money I'd muck both. If your looking for a top money finish I'd push in with the AK and fold the 88.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your goal for the tournamnet? If you just want to get in the money I'd muck both. If your looking for a top money finish I'd push in with the AK and fold the 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I thought before I posted and nobody has really changed my mind yet(btw, my goal is always to make the final table and give myself a shot at big money...I could care less about getting a little more than my buy in back).

[AceKQJT]

Depending on my feel for the table: I push with AK. I probably push with 8-8 also. It's hard to answer that question without actually being there. I mean, my stack is < 10 X BB, so I'm looking to win a few coinflips anyway.

--casey

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd push in with the AK and fold the 88

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people seem to favor the AKo over the 88? We know the 88 is a slight favorite so I wonder why many are willing to push with the AK and fold the 8's? I'm pushing both here but if I had my druthers I'd take the 88 over the AK.

[sdplayerb]

Well that would be a pretty bad call with a baby pocket pair against a UTG raise. You are a coinflip or a huge underdog. I could see if he was in late position.
But calling in the area of 20% of your stack for at best a coinflip is not a good way to play your chips.

[sdplayerb]

So you are trying to just make the money. What is that, 2x your buyin? I can see if it was to make the final table, well not really as the money is in the top 3 spots, but would make more sense.

You are just thinking of the big stacks. Realize the medium stacks can't call you without a huge hand as that would make them a small stack, so they are easier to steal from.

You can't be a long time winner by throwing away good hands that can gain you chips you need for a run at the big money just to eek into making 2x your buyin.

Players that play that way are easy to steal from near the bubble, and is how the aggressive players build their stacks and make the big money.

[DOTTT]

The reason why I would push with the AK and fold the 88 is because some players will actually fold middle pocket pairs to an all in raise, but would call with hands such as AK and AQ. So sure 88 is a favorite over AK but you’re more likely to be called by a hand such as AK and be in a coin flip situation, where else when you push with AK the chances of you being dominated are very slim.