Karma

[Homer]

I'm feeling childish today.

I suck at NL and likely butchered this hand (though once I was re-raised all-in I was stuck, getting ~3:1), but what do you think of the chat that followed? It really got me thinking about how karma is going to bite me in the ass and how my opponent is going to be rewarded by the Gods for his gentle, caring nature. What do you think?

Hand

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($107.85)
UTG ($98.10)
UTG+1 <font color="purple">(My best friend)</font> ($116.35)
MP1 ($39.50)
Hero ($60.35)
CO ($41.05)
Button ($50.25)
SB ($269.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 <font color="purple">(My best friend)</font> raises to $4, MP1 folds, Hero calls $4, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: ($9.50) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
My best friend bets $10, Hero raises to $25, My best friend raises to $112.35 (All-In), Hero calls $31.35 (All-In).

Turn: ($178.20) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in) </font>

River: ($178.20) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in) </font>

Final Pot: $178.20
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $122.20, between My best friend and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero ($122.20).</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: $56, overbet by My best friend.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
My best friend shows Ah Ad (one pair, aces).
Hero shows Ts 9s (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins $122.20. My best friend wins $56. </font>

Chat

jujupuff88: u wanna play? (*Before I called his all-in reraise*)
Check_Fold: yes please (*After I called and sucked out*)
cjh102977: unreal
jujupuff88: omg
jujupuff88: f.uck u
Check_Fold: hahaha
cjh102977: dont you just love playing on here
cjh102977: he thinks it was a good call too
adb2004: lol
Check_Fold: i love you juju
cjh102977: again someone gets lucky and talks sh.it
Check_Fold: i didnt talk any [censored]
Check_Fold: he said [censored] u for no reason
Check_Fold: i'll be perfectly cordial if others will
jujupuff88: floyd u fgt [censored] (*He was trying to type 'fold'*)
jujupuff88: u f.uckin f.ag piee of [censored]
Check_Fold: weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
jujupuff88: wtf was your dumbass thinkin?
Check_Fold: i love you
jujupuff88: f.uckin reraiseing me
jujupuff88: w/ a low flush draw
jujupuff88: u sun of a b.itch
Check_Fold: u are my best friend
jujupuff88: wahtever, karma will get your fa gass

Really makes you think, doesn't it...

-- Homer

[Oski]

Yeah, so far so good. He's right. Nice things happen to nice people!

[sthief09]

Check_Fold: i love you juju

classy /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Robk]

Preflop your call is wrong unless you have a book on him.
On the flop, EV (pushing) is 36p-16, where p is probability he folds. An AA-JJ/AK opener will fold 12/33 hands, so EV = 13-16 = -3. In reality it's probably worse than this as QQ and JJ have been known to occasionally stay out of the muck in this game. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I think your play is less profitable than a push in this game because
1. QQ and JJ sometimes won't fold to the smaller raise where they would to the bigger raise.
2. Good players (and bad players too, sometimes) will give you the stop and go, which murders your EV.
3. Those times you make the flush on the river, it will be obvious what you have and you won't always get paid.

The advantage of your play is the chance you get a free card, but IME this only works against very timid, very bad players, particularly with this board.

My play is to call the flop, and prepare to be undercharged on the turn. For some reason they never bet enough on that street /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Homer]

Cool, thanks for the response. I was kind of hoping for someone to tear into me, even though that wasn't my main reason for making the post.

Preflop your call is wrong unless you have a book on him.

Can you elaborate on this? I read the Ciaffone/Reuben book (only once, mind you, so I've likely only digested 5% of the information), and I thought they said that with a pair or suited connectors you can call for 5% or less your stack, but not for 10% or more, with 5-10% being a gray area based on your opponents. I figured for 6.6% of my stack (4/60) against an opponent who might give me his whole stack, it was worth a shot.

Am I misinterpreting the statement from the book or is this a different situation entirely since there are players yet to act behind me?

On the flop, EV (pushing) is 36p-16, where p is probability he folds. An AA-JJ/AK opener will fold 12/33 hands, so EV = 13-16 = -3. In reality it's probably worse than this as QQ and JJ have been known to occasionally stay out of the muck in this game. I think your play is less profitable than a push in this game because
1. QQ and JJ sometimes won't fold to the smaller raise where they would to the bigger raise.
2. Good players (and bad players too, sometimes) will give you the stop and go, which murders your EV.
3. Those times you make the flush on the river, it will be obvious what you have and you won't always get paid.

The advantage of your play is the chance you get a free card, but IME this only works against very timid, very bad players, particularly with this board.

I often have trouble determining whether I should fold, call, make a medium size semi-bluff raise or push in situations like this, so this definitely helps.

My play is to call the flop, and prepare to be undercharged on the turn. For some reason they never bet enough on that street.

For some reason, in the heat of battle, I dismissed calling without too much thought. I guess I'm still stuck in limit mentality as far as thinking too much about immediate pot odds and not enough about implied odds. I'd be getting 2:1 on a 4:1 shot, and could easily collect more than $20 on the remaining streets should I catch, so there was no reason for me to not at least consider this option.

-- Homer

[Baulucky]

Some people can't take losses without losing more than the $...