Too cold for AKo

[naphand]

Whoring on Party for the $100 bonus.

$1/$2 6 max - 6 seated.

To my right (OTB) is a player verging in tilt due to horrible suckouts from brainless (UTG this hand) who calls with with almost anything, and almost never folds the flop. To my left in the BB will raise any part of the flop, UTG+1 is a super bluffer, CO looks reasonable, plays well post-flop.

I am SB with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif

PF: UTG limps, UTG+1 folds, CO limps, Button folds, I raise, all call.

Flop (4 BB): Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, BB raises, UTG calls, CO call, I call.

Turn (8 BB): 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, BB bets, UTG calls, CO calls, I call.

River (12 BB): 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check (planning to CR), BB bets, UTG folds, CO raises, I call, BB calls.

The flop is good but scary, I know BB's raise means very little; I don't think 3-betting the Flop would have achieved much, apart from getting more money in for players to draw to. My hand could be best, but I could be beat already and these guys won't fold their draws now.

Turn was a blank, I am happy to let BB bet this, but should I have bet out here and hope he raises? I think he would just call and the result would be the same. No-one is scared of the 4. UTG coming along for the ride with literally anything adds value here.

River was a good card for me, I planned to CR this. BB bets as expected but the raise from CO was unexpected. How many call 2 cold (my read is that BB will not raise except with the nuts)? I figured the flush is possible, but he would also make that bet with any K (and it is not AK or he raises PF). This is a tough fold to make here with 15BB in the pot?

Results below in white:

<font color="white">BB shows QhJd
CO shows 8d7d
I was ahead all the way until the River.</font>

[fyodor]

You're right about more bets not likely to fold the draws and with that flop there are a lot of draws. I would think any A,Q,J,T,9 or diamond is potentialy the end for your King. That's a lot of cards.

With the CO being the only guy you give any credit to and him cold calling the flop then raising when the 3rd diamond hits I don't think I would even bother calling.

[fyodor]

Sorry the J of course give you the straight. Still a lot of bad cards though

[PassiveCaller]

The river wasn't as good of a card as you made it out to be unless you think the BB had QT but the fact it was a diamond should have been enough here to weigh against a check-raise. Check-raise? No. Check-call? Depending on the action.. It becomes clear that someone hit something better then top pair once the CO comes to life on the river.. Fold here!

[stripsqueez]

i think its a bit of a crime to hit the flop and only bet once - i feel compelled to 3 bet the flop or check raise the turn - first priority is to make the draws pay

the river is best decided at the table - if you read the cutoff as being a decent straight forward player then fold is a good choice

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[naphand]

I have to confess, I did not even notice the River was the 3rd diamond. I seem to suffer from this temporary "board blindness" very rarely, sometimes I see a straight in my hand when it is just a 4 straight. Odd.

Looks like 3-bet the flop and fold the River. I was fav. to win on Turn so maybe a bet there (if the flop was not capped) was best, though I think CO had odds to draw correctly to his flush even if BB had raised. I get kinda twitchy when there are a ton of callers and boards like this, though I liked the River (not noticing the /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) as I figured on a (flopped) straight beat me.

Too passive. Must try harder.

[fyodor]

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes I see a straight in my hand when it is just a 4 straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember a hand where I made a 4 straight on the river and then called a bet hoping to suck out on 6th street. Boy was I surprised when instead of dealing another card they just turned them over. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[naphand]

Another case of "temporary suspension of sanity".... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rtrombone]

I don't want to go Dynasty on you but you played this hand terribly. Especially worrisome is your thought process, which indicates a lack of poker fundamentals.

Preflop: fine
Flop: You're right, there are a lot of draws out there. Any ace, nine or diamond could kill your hand. For this reason, smooth-calling the flop is a viable option. If you do this, though, it's with the intention of check-raising a blank turn. Because on the turn your pot equity increases considerably, and check-raising the entire field is +++EV.

I will normally 3-bet the flop, though, because I'm out of position and the two cold-callers may have squirrely hands which they plan to release on the turn. If you just call, the flop raiser bets and the other guys fold, you've left money on the table. Similarly, if the turn gets checked through you've left a TON of money on the table.

Notice that I'm operating under the assumption that I have the best hand. This will usually be the case. There needs to be a lot more action before I begin to suspect I'm behind. Worrying that someone has two pair or a straight just because one guy raised you is bad, weak-tight thinking.

Turn: As discussed above, I would've 3-bet the flop and led the turn or smooth-called the flop and check-raised the turn. That's a great, great card on the turn, a complete blank.

River: Two guys have been calling the whole way and you're considering check-raising the flush card? What did you put them on? The raiser will have a flush here almost every time. Your fold was correct.

It seems like you were worried somebody had two pair, which is why you thought the 4 on the river was good for you. This doesn't make sense, though, as you do not hold an overpair. You're still behind KQ and KT.

As a general rule, if you're not sure you have the best hand but you ARE sure that some people are on draws, you have to make those draws pay. Don't slow down unless you're pretty damn sure you need to improve and are getting the proper odds to do so.

[naphand]

I don't think it was "that" terrible but you make some good points. Dynasty who?

I did not say I planned to CR the River when the flush card hit I planned to CR the River if a blank hit, or if the inevitable bet from BB was just called round. Clearly I would be last to act if I check and BB bets (as expected). A raise would make me re-consider, which it did. My plan was not good in this respect; I did not think what I would do if BB got raised (FOLD!). At the time I did not notice it was the flush card, which explains my call.

This was weak post-flop, I guess I was pretty uncomfortable with my play, which is why I posted... /images/graemlins/wink.gif). 3-betting the flop is clearly better than the line I took here. I also like (prefer) the Turn CR, esp. with a complete blank hitting.

I think my problem was (i) playing out of position and (ii) thinking as a raise was not knocking anyone out, it was not such a cool idea. Clearly I still have "issues" playing multi-way with scary boards; in the past, I have been over-aggro in situations like this and stayed in/raised hands I should have got out of, and leaked too many bets. Apparently I'm still a little stuck in the "hand winning" thought process, rather than "return on chips invested".

One concern I have is that "a lot more action" and "Party $1/$2" do not necessarily go together; I do agree fully with your reasoning and it helps me tidy up my own thought process. Much appreciated.

[rtrombone]

Waiting until a safe card hits on the river before you raise is a bad plan. It looks like two of your opponents are on draws. Is a busted draw going to pay you on the river? By waiting until the river, you play the hand exactly as your opponents want you to. They get to try and draw out as cheaply as possible. On the river you get zero action unless they get there.

When your opponents are drawing you need to stick it to them on the flop and/or turn. It's scary because they can improve and beat you, but it's scarier for them when you charge them the max . Think, when you're sitting there with a flush draw do you want to put in one bet or three on the turn? You're the underdog.

You have to get out of the mindset of "my raise won't make anyone fold, so it's not worth it." Preflop if you have AA in the big blind you still raise, right? Of course, because it's +EV. Similarly, say you have top pair on the turn and the guy to your right bets into you. Even if you're 100% sure the guy to your left is going to call two cold with his straight draw, you have to raise. You're actually happy if he's willing to call two cold, because he's making a mistake. In the long run this is very profitable for you, as he's going to make his straight only 17.4% of the time. 82.6% of the time those two big bets will make their way to your bankroll. Remember, this guy isn't going to put anything into the pot on the river if he misses.

Another way to look at it: according to the fundamental theorem, you make money off your opponents' mistakes. By raising, you give them a chance to make as big a mistake as possible.

[naphand]

Yeah I know this, it's a question of doing what I already know.

My thinking was that BB would raise this flop with any part of it, I was quite surprised when so many called 2 cold (maybe I should not have been, it was a draw rich board). If I 3-bet they all call and BB just goes into call down mode so I am betting all the way, rather than him. I was thinking "well, let's just let BB bet this for me, I don't mind these guys calling along for the ride, the pots gonna be big I don't need to risk a lot here". If I 3-bet I have no chance of getting a CR in later, and with BB right next to me I get to CR the whole field. The tight guy was a concern, but the rest would call down and call a River CR even with 2nd pair or pockets of any kind, they did not have to be drawing to straights/flushes.

I have been too easy to hit the "3-bet" button on the flop in the past, and have paid off too much. I was trying to find hands where I could play another way, and still win some big pots. This, in hindsight, was not the right time. I wanted to 3-bet and I'm not sure why I chose not to CR the Turn blank; I put it down to the buzzing in my head from the swarm of players I was against.

Your post has helped crystallize the concepts I had in mind, into a better course of action in future.