Stealing a loose pot - QTs

[StellarWind]

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Table is loose/typical for this site. SB is loose. Cutoff is new this orbit, no read. Button is a moderate LAG. The tell on the flop was not intentional. I mention it in case it affects future play.

Was it appropriate to try and steal the pot? Should I have fired again on the river?

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls after a short hesitation, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 6.50 BB, between Hero and SB.</font>

[Homer]

SB is loose.

Loose-passive or loose-aggressive?

Flop - The flop decision is close and ultimately hinges on how likely it is that someone behind you will raise.

You have 4 outs to the nuts and 3 overcard outs that will not always be clean. I would conservatively give myself an extra 1.5-2 outs there. If you have 6 outs, you're a shade under 7:1 against catching on the turn and you're getting immediate odds of 7:1. So, it appears to be close. Two other things must be considered that can push you one way or the other. Working against you is that there are two players behind you who have yet to act. They could raise, thereby destroying your odds. Working in your favor is implied odds, should you catch a 9 on the turn.

Turn - With what hands do you think SB would bet a J86r flop into a large field, then check the turn after two opponents called? If you are confident that you're up against a draw (T9 or 97), then I like the bet. Get the button out of there and get it heads-up with a worse hand. If you happen to be wrong, you have outs. Against most opponents, however, I'm going to check, confident that I'm behind a weak J or an 8.

River - If I chose to bet the turn, it would be with the intention of following it up with a river bet most of the time. However, when the top card pairs, there's no way you're going to get an 8 or 6 to fold, so good check behind. Also, note that if SB was drawing with 97 or T9, there's no need to bet.

-- Homer

[Alobar]

I think you need to give up thinking that calling after hesitating is a tell. This is online, he prolly figures you're repacking your bowl, or looking at porn in the background or something /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you're going to bet this turn in order to steal, you need to bet the river. The top card paired and after the turn check when an undercard and a blank hits its very likely the SB either has nothing, or is on a draw. I think a bet wins the pot often enough to be profitable, and it needs to be made in case he's got ace high. If the Jack handn't fallen however, I dunno if I would bet the river to steal

[AceHigh]

Against a typical, loose party player I fold on the flop, the pot is small, you have 2 players to act behind you who might raise. Too much chance you are drawing to 3-outs.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a typical, loose party player I fold on the flop, the pot is small, you have 2 players to act behind you who might raise. Too much chance you are drawing to 3-outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's actually four outs. Plus, don't forget about the overcard, which will be good some of the time. Does this sway your decision in favor of a call?

[AceHigh]

Doh! I misread the board. Yeah, that's a definate call on the flop.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to give up thinking that calling after hesitating is a tell. This is online, he prolly figures you're repacking your bowl, or looking at porn in the background or something


[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention the other stuff that comes with looking at porn.

[StellarWind]

Prescient and insightful analysis Homer.

I don't know how aggressive SB is. I've only seen a very small sample so far.

I think my flop call is OK. The implied odds provide enough of an overlay to compensate for the risk of a raise. In addition to the overcard and the gutshot, the backdoor broadway draw is also worth about 1/2 an out.

I mentioned the tell on the flop because I hate it when hands are posted without relevant information. I give all the facts and you guys tell me what is important.

As an aside, I have had some good luck with this tell recently. In the right context a slow call seems to be a good indicator of weakness. Unlike many fuzzy tells this one tells you what to do: bluff again. I've won a couple of pots where I normally would have given up on the next street.

I checked the river because I didn't think he would fold (insufficient chance of working).

Later on after seeing the results I realized that I had done the right thing for the wrong reason. It is quite likely that SB is on a draw--but I have the best of all possible flop draws so I don't need to risk a bet on a bluff. I can just show my hand down.

SB had 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif. MHIG.

In hindsight the turn bet did just enough. It knocked the Button out of the pot. Perhaps equally important, by representing a made hand I stopped SB from bluffing. That would be a hard river call for me to find.

Thanks to everyone.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]

As an aside, I have had some good luck with this tell recently. In the right context a slow call seems to be a good indicator of weakness. Unlike many fuzzy tells this one tells you what to do: bluff again. I've won a couple of pots where I normally would have given up on the next street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, you'd go crazy playing me if you really think thats a tell. Between 4 tables and these forums there is usually a hesitation before I call no matter what I have.

The only tells online I give any credit too, is the famous taking forever and then raising when the flush draw hits and the "machine gun" check. If 4 people all check in .003 seconds to me, I know they prolly had check/fold selected in which case I bet.

[Homer]

If 4 people all check in .003 seconds to me, I know they prolly had check/fold selected in which case I bet.

I like using the "Check" button to make opponents think this when I'm trying to checkraise. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
If 4 people all check in .003 seconds to me, I know they prolly had check/fold selected in which case I bet.

I like using the "Check" button to make opponents think this when I'm trying to checkraise. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats actually a good play, but I've only seen it a handful of times, for the most part it usually just means they want to fold