Hand for review: QQ UTG

[Warik]

This was a weird hand for me. What would you do differently, if anything?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (5.40 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.70 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 11.70 BB, between Hero and Button.</font>

[JohnShaft]

I don't see another way to play it Warik.

I certainly wouldn't fold to the Turn raise.
And I wouldn't 3-bet because I wouldn't want to dig myself in for another 2 bets if he'd called me with something like A3s.
He plays it more like a 3 than a Jack, even down to calling the 3-bet to Raise the Turn.
I'm curious what he had here. He's either very aggressive with a Jack, had something like A3s, or he decided to get cute with Aces?

I'd have played it the same as you.
(Unless you know more about your opponents cold-calling standards, and his aggression, I think it's best to do what you did).

[Warik]

Opponent had AJo and MHIG.

I was confused in this hand for several reasons.

1) Coldcalling PF with AJo?
2) Call my flop 3-bet but raise the turn?
3) Betting the river?

I'm not as concerned with my play because I don't see any other way to do it. I'm wondering about his. Preflop it's a horrible play, but postflop I might have played the same way with TPTK and 2 3's on the board that my opponent is unlikely to have given that he raised PF. What do you think?

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's an aggressive player.
Not to mention a weak cold caller. But then I think cold calling with AJ is pretty routine for most players. "I've got a big Ace". We all see many plays where the difference between what people do do, and should do, is distinct.

I think he's over aggressive given that he is playing against a solid player with solid PF raising standards.

Given that the river bet is a mistake. There is reasoning for much of the rest of it. Though I think given your Flop 3-bet it looks like you have him beat and are not laying down, so I think even the Turn raise is a mistake.
He basically cost himself an extra bet. The worst bet in the hand (other than PF) was the River bet.

I'd definitely mark him down as somewhat over aggressive and play back at him a little more next time.

[AceHigh]

That's the way I would usually play it, slowing down when I get raised again on the turn.

Sometimes I would go to the stop 'n go, flop and turn, but I like 3 betting more. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Homer]

2) Call my flop 3-bet but raise the turn?

This isn't a horrible play if he's going to call it down anyway and thinks that you might fold an overpair to a turn raise. Of course, it only makes sense if he checks behind on the river.

[Randy Burgess]

I don't agree there's no other way to play it. Even before I read your giveway of what the button actually held, my first thought was that I'm jamming him on that turn.

Here was my reasoning: He called on the button, he didn't reraise - so I don't put him on an excellent hand like KK, AA, AK, or AQs. I put him more on a medium pair or something like AJs or even ATs than anything else. A sane opponent is not calling you with any hand that has a 3 in it at this point - and even if he were nuts and held 33 or some such he'd raise here to isolate rather than chance letting in the blinds. With the medium pairs he might not reraise preflop because he feels he's got more in the way of actual value, versus a piece of crap like 33 where literally his only chance is to get head-up.

His flop raise tells me he's got a Jack, but not a set of Jacks, because with that hand he'd want you to bet into him again on the turn so he could raise there. So he's paired a Jack or has something like TT or 99. He's hoping you just have two big cards and will fold right here rather than carry on.

His turn raise is more of the same - either he figures you're blowing smoke with overcards, or he's dumb enough to think his hand is good since an overcard didn't hit. Of course it could be a sign of desperation or tilt, too.

There is no way I'm not raising him on that turn. He's evidentally not very smart (if calling an UTG raise with AJ weren't a prety good clue), because your betting into him on the expensive street is a sign he's badly beat.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]

Here was my reasoning: He called on the button, he didn't reraise - so I don't put him on an excellent hand like KK, AA, AK, or AQs. I put him more on a medium pair or something like AJs or even ATs than anything else. A sane opponent is not calling you with any hand that has a 3 in it at this point - and even if he were nuts and held 33 or some such he'd raise here to isolate rather than chance letting in the blinds. With the medium pairs he might not reraise preflop because he feels he's got more in the way of actual value, versus a piece of crap like 33 where literally his only chance is to get head-up.



[/ QUOTE ]

You are giving his opponent way too much credit for thinking about preflop decisions. There is no reason to believe his opponent couldn't hold a 3 in this spot. And I see a lot of players who merely coldcall with JJ. Of course you can't really be worried about either of those hands enough to fold, but to keep raising seems too much.


3-betting the turn against an unknown opponent here seems to be overplaying your hand. Hero has done everything short of typing in the chat box "I have an overpair" and he is still being raised on the turn. Calling down is the only reasonable move.

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way I'm not raising him on that turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Randy, clarify this for me, if you would.
Are you saying you would *reraise* him on the Turn, when he raises you?
If that's what you mean, what would you do if he caps?

[Randy Burgess]

He caps, I call down. Also, if you follow my reasoning, when the Ten hits the river I will be forced to check-call in any case - it is one of the few cards I don't want to see.

Also, in response to balkii objecting that my approach is too aggressive versus an unknown player, I can only say that the reasoning I outlined is not something I made up to seem clever after-the-fact. It's how I would actually play the hand the majority of the time. Not to play this way would be to turn off my hand-reading skills, which is the best part of my game.

I would only worry if I felt the preflop raiser were a) an exceptionally loose, wild player, or b) an extremely good player who in turn might feel I was a decent enough player to be trying to read his patterns. In the latter case there would be the danger that he was deliberately smooth-calling preflop with something like JJ or better, giving up a little by chancing the blinds calling so he could outplay me later.

But the majority of time against a "typical" bad player I have no problem playing the hand as I describe. Note by the way that our hero didn't say whether or not he had begun to classify his opponent in any way. If he had said "this guy just sat down and I had no clue about him," I'd be willing to back off and play more conservatively.

[Randy Burgess]

[ QUOTE ]
You are giving his opponent way too much credit for thinking about preflop decisions... &lt;snip&gt; Hero has done everything short of typing in the chat box "I have an overpair" and he is still being raised on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every single player you'll ever encounter who has played more than a dozen hours or so will have a reason for absolutely everything they do preflop. They may be stupid, bad reasons, they may vary according to whether the player is on tilt or has improved since you last saw him or (to take an extreme case) is deliberately randomizing his play, but they are reasons just the same.

Our job as a good player is to watch all of these players, no matter how loose and bad they are, and learn as best we can what they will and won't play and how and if possible why. "Why" is getting into logic and psychology, but it can be done.

If we instead just shrug and say "I'm not going to try and figure out what my opponents in a 5/10 game will call a raise with before the flop, they're all so loose and crazy," we are giving up a HUGE amount of potential edge.

Second, correct me if I'm misreading you here, but you seem be saying that the only reason someone will raise headup on the turn is for value. This is completely not the case.

Back to the hand in question - ever read John Fox, who wrote "Quit Work, Play Poker, and Sleep till Noon?" One of the most important things in that book is Fox's observation that when trying to read an opponent you must think about whether their play late in a hand is consistent with their play earlier in the hand. In this case, the button's play preflop is inconsistent with his play postflop.

[balkii]

Randy - you make a lot of good points, and I agree with you for the most part. But I have been shown a 3 or an AA/KK/JJ or a (pocket pair of whatever card fell on the turn, cant remember right now) in this spot too many times to reraise an unknown here.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
2) Call my flop 3-bet but raise the turn?

This isn't a horrible play if he's going to call it down anyway and thinks that you might fold an overpair to a turn raise. Of course, it only makes sense if he checks behind on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why he would think that I'd lay down an overpair. The only thing he could have on this board that threatens me is something with a 3, which I don't think anyone reasonable would coldcall with preflop.

Even if he had pocket jacks I wouldn't lay down because I would have expected him to 3-bet before the flop.

He should have checked the river through. That's how I would have played it if I had played PF, flop, and turn like he did.

Raise the turn and check the river or call the turn and river bets.

If any of you were him, when, if at any time, would you lay down TPTK vs. my actions?

[Randy Burgess]

[ QUOTE ]
If any of you were him, when, if at any time, would you lay down TPTK vs. my actions?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were playing well and trusted my reads, I'd lay down when you bet into me on the turn. Your flop reraise could have been posturing, but now it's the expensive street. Plus you are out of position - very important. Plus you must surely realize there's a good chance I'll call down given the texture of the board doesn't lend itself to a draw. All of these things suggest you can beat top pair, which leaves me with five outs assuming you don't have Aces (or god forbid Jacks). The pot isn't big enough for me to call your turn bet if I'm right, since only a Jack on the end will be safe for me to jam on.

And while I might consider calling you down anyway, so you don't get the impression you can run me over, I might not. 2 BB is not a trivial cost.