Is it worthwhile, at all, to play Play Money NLH on UB or anywhere? [Archive]

View Full Version : Is it worthwhile, at all, to play Play Money NLH on UB or anywhere?

Yardbird

05-22-2004, 12:08 AM

I initially thought it might help me with tactics for NoFold'em Hold'em; but, now I'm not so sure... I think I may just be picking up bad habits. I've never played online before, and the last few days have been rather demoralizing.

I'm interested in ruminating on the intrinsic value of attempting to conquer the Free tables. Pros and Cons if you please.

cornell2005

05-22-2004, 01:50 AM

pros: gives you time to think about situations, hand strengths, overall poker strategies, ect

cons: can pick up lots of bad habits, wont develop hand reading skills from other people's plays, ect

JKratzer

05-22-2004, 02:59 AM

I tell all beginners to start out at Play Money, mostly to learn the value of certain hands against others. Once someone knows the basic rules of hold'em and how good certain hands are against other hands (i.e. straight when three flush cards are out) then I recommend they start playing very low limits and work their way up. If you know basically how to play poker and feel comfortable playing, put on however much you feel comfortable losing (always assume you will lose, it's safer) and work up from there.

Good Luck,

JKratzer

Godfather80

05-22-2004, 10:46 AM

Because hand reading is such a important skill in NL, I'd stay away from play money. As Sklansky said in HPFAP, don't bother trying to read the hands of bad players, it's a waste of time. The players who use play money don't really have that much to teach. I'm sure it could be argued that neither do the players at 25max buy-in tables or 5+1 SnGs, but I think one can learn more about NL here and have less chance to pick up the bad habits that dominate play money. For a great example of how not playing with real money destroys any semblance of actual poker, watch Celebrity Poker on Bravo. It's a joke.

I thought about this play money problem quite a bit when I first started playing. I decide that the only way that play money games could be useful is if you had a NL study group, consisting of yourself and 9 others, who could take over a play money table. At that point, you could attempt to play seriously and possibly (note: it's still not the same as real money) learn NL on the cheap.

Yardbird

05-23-2004, 06:35 PM

First off, I'd like to thank all those who've read or responded to this thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Because hand reading is such a important skill in NL, I'd stay away from play money. As Sklansky said in HPFAP, don't bother trying to read the hands of bad players, it's a waste of time. The players who use play money don't really have that much to teach. I'm sure it could be argued that neither do the players at 25max buy-in tables or 5+1 SnGs, but I think one can learn more about NL here and have less chance to pick up the bad habits that dominate play money. For a great example of how not playing with real money destroys any semblance of actual poker, watch Celebrity Poker on Bravo. It's a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I've just had that principal redemonstrated to me regarding reading bad players. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't suppose it helps that the proportion of chum-league (as in "shark-bait") to average players seems to be in the neighbourhood of 9:1 at the FreeMoney tables either. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif But, it comes back to the basic concept that it should be more profitable for an average to good player in such situations: the proverbial "No Fold'em Hold'em" (NFHE) game. That's what I expected and was principally seeking to experiment with since my poker experience is almost entirely flesh&blood games (except for the last couple days @ UB) where the proportion of real fish and calling stations at any given table is nowhere near the micro-calibre found at the FreeMoney tables online IMHO. I suspect that I got impatient and reckless waiting for the optimum hands that are required on NFHE tables coupled with the fact that I had no real stake in the game to trigger a reality check. (Should this move to the Psychology forum?)

Anyway, perhaps I should solicit information about what kinds of hands I should be playing and what fundamental alterations to conventional wisdom should be adopted to optimize performance in a NFHE=FreeMoney game and compare that with what I was actually doing. I'll try searching the forums here as well.

I've not completely given up on the experiment... I'd really like to see if its possible to conquer the FreeMoney tables---theoretically, it should be, as I assume that similar situations have already been discussed on this site in the past. If any of you reading this recall and can post links to those threads it would be much appreciated.

My secondary hypothesis about the FreeMoney tables is that the quality of play should get better as the blind values go up in proportion to the basic Freeroll value (1000 points @ UB)... Maybe I'm wrong. My next foray may be to attempt to capitalize on Malmuth's reasoning that the optimum bankroll is equivalent to the BB (if I recall the Poker Essay correctly).

Any and all suggestions on how to accomplish my goal of amassing 1,000,000 points ASAP playing at the FreeMoney tables on UB are welcome. Perhaps I should cross-post this challenge in the Poker Theory forum?

[ QUOTE ]
I thought about this play money problem quite a bit when I first started playing. I decided that the only way that play money games could be useful is if you had a NL study group, consisting of yourself and 9 others, who could take over a play money table. At that point, you could attempt to play seriously and possibly (note: it's still not the same as real money) learn NL on the cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree; however, I'm still convinced that there must still be a way to defeat them in the long term, despite the gulf of divergence from conventional strategy that may be required to do so.

Here's some extraneous background on my personal take on online gambling (in white):
I really have no interest in playing online for real money, because I feel like a blind man there, unable to fully evaluate my opposition, and equally unable to verify that there is no covert machination of the flow of the game. Just because one is paranoid doesn't preclude the possibility that somebody is not out to get one. I'm also very wary of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
If any community can appreciate the possibility that the purveyors of online gaming might be capable of acting in contravention of reason by manipulating natural circumstances of profit, I would think that it is poker players (it's an optimum bluffing situation IMHO). But I digress... Let's not delve into any conspiracy theories in this thread, P L E A S E.

flatline

05-23-2004, 08:44 PM

Just play the .01/.02 NL games on UB. Its so little money that you're not really risking anything, and the game at least has some sanity to it. It doesn't really matter how much you play for, but you have to play for SOMETHING before you can really consider it poker, and learn anything.

Yardbird

05-24-2004, 12:57 AM

It's all about the challenge in this case.

I'm not interested in playing for money unless I'm F2F with my opposition. I'm a well-schooled, but, intuitive player.

crazy canuck

05-24-2004, 10:14 AM

If you don't want to play the microlimits, you can try the no limit freeroll tourneys. It is still no fold em, but less silly than the play money games.

sniperd

05-24-2004, 10:20 AM

I honestly have been able to apply a few things I learned from play money to real money games. However, I started playing play money, after I was a real money player. Here is what happened, and how it helped me.

I was already playing some $25 buy in NL, and was a regular at the low limit Foxwoods tables. A friend of mine wanted to play online too, but wasn't ready for cash, so I played with him for a few weeks, on and off, on various sites. From this, I learned several things:

1) Which sites I liked. Since I was playing fake money, I spent more time exploring the site, since I was a little board.

2) You can learn to play Omaha, or 7 card hi/lo, etc. Something that may not be spread often, and the easiest way to learn the rules is to get in there!

3) Play money players are terrible in general. There are many bad habits to be picked up, and this leads to my next point...

4) If you can't beat a play money table over time (if you play it seriously), then you probably can't beat a real money table. Ideally, you want to play with players constantly making mistakes, and that's all there is at a play money table. You just need to tighten the heck up, and get in there with the best hands. It's very extreme, but you’re practicing the Fundamental Thermo of Poker. Now, you must realize that middle pair is NOT often the best hand at real cash, so don’t start picking up bad habits, but if you’re already a good real money player, you can learn this:

5) How to beat that table full or terrible players at 3:00 a.m. in a BM that just got done at a bachelor party. I don’t know how many times I have heard players complain about how a game was so ‘good’ that it couldn’t be beat. Well, how often do you get to practice against a bunch of terrible players? You may have a couple of goons at your table giving it away, but how do you beat 8 goons? The only place where you can practice this regularly is at play money. Sure, you may do fine and make some money, but I have found that I need to drastically change my game to beat a full table of idiots, and when the fires hot, I wanna strike it when I find it!

I would say in general, the play money tables serve little purpose to me now, but you can glean a few gems out of them!

Yardbird

05-24-2004, 12:27 PM

...Then this maniac shows up on an incredible rush an ruins the day's take. :-( I suppose I should have had the presence of mind to just take off rather than butting heads with him (I'll post the 3 hand sequence elsewhere in this thread).

I share very similar reasoning on all your points. The only difference is that I'm not interested in playing online cash-games.

Yardbird

05-24-2004, 12:30 PM

I may be resigned to do that; but, the scheduling is frequently inconvenient. /images/graemlins/frown.gif I honestly think I'd have a chance at Aruba if I can keep a lid on my steam (which I've never really had a problem with in flesh&blood games) /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Yardbird

05-24-2004, 12:55 PM

This IMHO typifies the quintessential obstacle to my objective of conquering the FreeMoney tables... As I've said earlier, I should have just beat feet from this table when this maniac first showed his colours---I felt like an ass for letting this chump pull this over on me; but, I know that I'd own him in a live game. Opinions and sympathy are welcome /images/graemlins/wink.gif

After 5 hours of play working up from 1000 points in FreeMoney...

Read between the lines if you care:
[ QUOTE ]
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #1600129-11731 at Play Chip 137g (No Limit play money Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 24/May/04 00:38:46

zamb0ni is at seat 0 with 480.
petercsel is at seat 1 with 2380.
MarshalHearts is at seat 2 with 14870.
Kat_ohio is at seat 3 with 1950.
tbunny29 is at seat 4 with 7350.
paid4 is at seat 5 with 16700.
Lammychop is at seat 6 with 3720.
WhyDontWin is at seat 7 with 5520 (sitting out).
Coolhand_74 is at seat 8 with 770.
The button is at seat 2.

Kat_ohio posts the small blind of 10.
tbunny29 posts the big blind of 20.

zamb0ni: -- --
petercsel: -- --
MarshalHearts: 8d 8s
Kat_ohio: -- --
tbunny29: -- --
paid4: -- --
Lammychop: -- --
Coolhand_74: -- --

Pre-flop:

paid4 calls. paid4 says "one brave soul". Lammychop
calls. paid4 says "nh". Coolhand_74 calls.
zamb0ni folds. petercsel calls. MarshalHearts
raises to 150. Kat_ohio calls. tbunny29 calls.
paid4 re-raises to 280. Lammychop calls.
Coolhand_74 folds. petercsel folds. MarshalHearts
calls. Kat_ohio calls. tbunny29 calls.

Flop (board: 5c 2h 3h):

Kat_ohio checks. tbunny29 checks. paid4 bets 1440.
Lammychop calls. MarshalHearts calls. Kat_ohio
folds. tbunny29 folds.

Turn (board: 5c 2h 3h 3d):

paid4 bets 20. Lammychop calls. 

MarshalHearts
calls.

River (board: 5c 2h 3h 3d Qh):

paid4 bets 5820. Lammychop folds. 

MarshalHearts
folds. paid4 is returned 5820 (uncalled).

paid4 opts to show 6d 4s.
paid4 has 6d 4s 5c 2h 3h: straight, six high.

Hand #1600129-11731 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
paid4 wins 5820.

----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #1600129-11732 at Play Chip 137g (No Limit play money Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 24/May/04 00:40:56

zamb0ni is at seat 0 with 980.
petercsel is at seat 1 with 2360.
MarshalHearts is at seat 2 with 13130.
Kat_ohio is at seat 3 with 1670.
tbunny29 is at seat 4 with 7070.
paid4 is at seat 5 with 20780.
Lammychop is at seat 6 with 1980.
WhyDontWin is at seat 7 with 5520 (sitting out).
Coolhand_74 is at seat 8 with 750.
1-der_Girl is at seat 9 with 1000.
The button is at seat 3.

tbunny29 posts the small blind of 10.
paid4 posts the big blind of 20.
1-der_Girl posts out of turn for 20.

zamb0ni: -- --
petercsel: -- --
MarshalHearts: As 2d
Kat_ohio: -- --
tbunny29: -- --
paid4: -- --
Lammychop: -- --
Coolhand_74: -- --
1-der_Girl: -- --

Pre-flop:

Lammychop calls. Coolhand_74 calls. 1-der_Girl
checks. paid4 says "cmon hearts u could of called".
zamb0ni raises to 200. petercsel folds.
MarshalHearts says "No way you loose ******". 
MarshalHearts folds. Kat_ohio calls. tbunny29
calls. paid4 calls. Lammychop calls. Coolhand_74
calls. 1-der_Girl calls.

Flop (board: 4c 2s 8d):

petercsel has disconnected, is dropped.
paid4 says "the chips aint real". tbunny29 checks.
paid4 bets 3000. Lammychop goes all-in for 1780.
Coolhand_74 goes all-in for 550. 1-der_Girl goes
all-in for 800. MarshalHearts says "2 U". zamb0ni
goes all-in for 780. Kat_ohio folds. tbunny29
folds. paid4 is returned 1220 (uncalled).

Turn (board: 4c 2s 8d 6c):

(no action in this round)

River (board: 4c 2s 8d 6c Kh):

(no action in this round)

Showdown:

paid4 shows 3h 8s.
paid4 has 8s 4c 8d 6c Kh: a pair of eights.
Lammychop shows 3c Qc.
Lammychop has Qc 4c 8d 6c Kh: king high.
Coolhand_74 shows Qd 6d.
Coolhand_74 has Qd 6d 8d 6c Kh: a pair of sixes.
1-der_Girl shows Qs Js.
1-der_Girl has Qs Js 8d 6c Kh: king high.
zamb0ni shows Jc Jh.
zamb0ni has Jc Jh 8d 6c Kh: a pair of jacks.

Hand #1600129-11732 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
zamb0ni wins the main pot 4150 with a pair of jacks.
zamb0ni wins side pot #1 920 with a pair of jacks.
paid4 wins side pot #2 60 with a pair of eights.
paid4 wins side pot #3 1960 with a pair of eights.
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #1600129-11733 at Play Chip 137g (No Limit play money Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 24/May/04 00:42:15

zamb0ni is at seat 0 with 5070.
petercsel is at seat 1 with 2360 (sitting out).
MarshalHearts is at seat 2 with 13130.
Kat_ohio is at seat 3 with 1470 (sitting out).
tbunny29 is at seat 4 with 6870.
paid4 is at seat 5 with 20820.
Lammychop is at seat 6 with 0 (sitting out).
WhyDontWin is at seat 7 with 5520 (sitting out).
Coolhand_74 is at seat 8 with 0 (sitting out).
The button is at seat 4.

paid4 posts the small blind of 10.
zamb0ni posts the big blind of 20.

zamb0ni: -- --
MarshalHearts: Qc Ac
tbunny29: -- --
paid4: -- --

Pre-flop:

petercsel has reconnected.
petercsel has disconnected, is dropped.
petercsel has reconnected.
MarshalHearts raises to 70. tbunny29 calls. paid4
re-raises to 120. zamb0ni folds. MarshalHearts
re-raises to 450. tbunny29 folds. paid4 re-raises
to 780. MarshalHearts re-raises to 2430. 

paid4
re-raises to 4080. MarshalHearts goes all-in for
13130. paid4 says "GL". paid4 says "i have chit".
paid4 calls. 

Flop (board: Ah Kh 2h):

(no action in this round)

Turn (board: Ah Kh 2h 5h):

(no action in this round)
petercsel has disconnected, is dropped.

River (board: Ah Kh 2h 5h Kc):

(no action in this round)
petercsel has reconnected.

Showdown:

MarshalHearts shows Qc Ac.
MarshalHearts has Qc Ac Ah Kh Kc: two pair, aces and kings.
paid4 shows 4d 3s.
paid4 has 4d 3s Ah 2h 5h: straight, five high.

Hand #1600129-11733 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
paid4 wins 26350 with straight, five high.

----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #1600129-11734 at Play Chip 137g (No Limit play money Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 24/May/04 00:43:43

zamb0ni is at seat 0 with 5050.
petercsel is at seat 1 with 2360.
MarshalHearts is at seat 2 with 0 (sitting out).
Kat_ohio is at seat 3 with 1470 (sitting out).
tbunny29 is at seat 4 with 6800.
paid4 is at seat 5 with 34040.
WhyDontWin is at seat 7 with 5520.
The button is at seat 5.

zamb0ni posts the small blind of 10.
petercsel posts the big blind of 20.

zamb0ni: -- --
petercsel: -- --
tbunny29: -- --
paid4: -- --

Pre-flop:

petercsel has disconnected, is dropped.
petercsel has reconnected.
tbunny29 calls. paid4 says "lmao". paid4 says
"sorry". paid4 raises to 200. zamb0ni folds.
WhyDontWin says "anus dwelling butt-monkey!!!".
petercsel calls. tbunny29 calls.

Flop (board: 4h 8d 3d):

MarshalHearts says "WTF is a 'chit'?". petercsel
checks. paid4 says "34". tbunny29 checks. paid4
bets 610. petercsel folds. tbunny29 calls.

Turn (board: 4h 8d 3d Jh):

tbunny29 checks. paid4 checks.

River (board: 4h 8d 3d Jh 8h):

tbunny29 bets 1830. paid4 raises to 7320. tbunny29
folds. paid4 is returned 5490 (uncalled).

paid4 opts to show 5c 8c.
paid4 has 5c 8c 8d Jh 8h: three eights.

Hand #1600129-11734 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
paid4 wins 5490.
----------------------------------------------------------------

[/ QUOTE ]

Yardbird

05-24-2004, 01:24 PM

I thought it was an excellent play to go all-in against the maniac before the flop since I just wanted to break the 20K buy-in for the 1000-2000 NL game. In retrospect it was unfortunate; but, I know I played well. Dissenting criticism is welcome though.