AQs in the SB, maniac in the hand 10-20

[Schmed]

A little background.....Game just started we're 7 handed. A young guy I have never played with before sits down. He raises 3 hands in a row from an lp. He wins all 3 pots. I suspect he's stealing but I didn't have anything to find out for sure. He finally showed down a hand that won but it was a total garbage, 93o, his 9 gave him the 3rd pair. He continues to play like this and won a few more pots then lost a couple...essentially by the time this hand happened he was about even with what he bought in for....

On to the hand....

UTG calls, mp calls, mp2 calls, co (maniac) calls, folds to me in the SB I raise, BB calls, all call.

Flop

K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, ep folds, mp folds, mp2 calls, co raises, I reraise, all fold to the co and he caps.

Turn

8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, co raises, I call

River

3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, co bets, I call.

[stoxtrader]

that's a very bad flop for you. Even vs a maniac, I can't imagine putting anymore money in after he caps the flop. You have A high?

[elysium]

hi schmed
no, no. once you get the maniac heads up, do not bet into him from first. if, however, you were in last position and he check-raises, then reraising is o.k. in this spot because you don't want him check-raising you with just A high decent.

o.k. schmed. alright. i hear you, i hear you.

no, no schmed. no. you're missing the point. the reason you would reraise when you do not want to be check-raised is because no one on the face of the earth can pretend that he doesn't want to be check-raised. it's an impossible tell to hide. something is going on at the chemical level there, and you're chems are sending out to your opponent's chems that you don't want to be check-raised. check-raising happens too often when we are only marginally strong to be mere chance. and the rarity of being check-raised when we are powerfully strong is also beyond chance. but bluffs and getting your raises called are all pretty much mathematically on par with reality. not check-raises though schmed.

so when you get check-raised, you need to reraise to prevent your opponents from running over you when you suffer an unfortunate chemical release. now your release is associated more with a nasty retaliatory reraise rather than a call of a check-raise, and sends your opponents chems short circuiting. yes schmed, you're chems are still going 'what the f...?', however, you just simply over-ride through the fray with 'strangelove hand' (another thread schmed for another time). do you understand all this?

[Schmed]

Yes Elysium ...for some strange reason... I do understand what you are saying here /images/graemlins/grin.gif (maybe it's the year + I've been reading your posts trying to figure out what you were saying.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[ QUOTE ]
once you get the maniac heads up, do not bet into him from first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought this was my biggest mistake in this hand. The other one I thought I made was not check-raising the maniacs bet on the flop. I think my 3 bet meant to the players at the table who play with me all the time that I had AK, AA, or better, and that made the guy in the mp fold a garbage jack.

My hand was good. He turned over Q9o (9 was a diamond)picked up what little he had left never to be seen again.

My thoughts in this hand were, preflop almost auto raise with limpers like that. I didn't like the flop but having raised I wanted to represent AK to the people I was familiar with. I kind of thought the maniac would raise me and my thinking was when he did I had to reraise him to isolate him. If anyone called behind I would have had to play the hand differently. His cap meant 2 cards. In retrospect I think I should have C/Rd the flop. I thought about it but I didn't.

The turn is where I think I really screwed this up. My thought was, 'represent the flush'...in rethinking about this I kind of beat myself up for not playing it like I would have played a flush. Maniacs can catch I wanted him out. When he raised there I was a little bit put off...like you said Elysium (wasn't even a C/R /images/graemlins/grin.gif) but I know the pot was just too big and I thought there was a real good chance that this guy didn't have anything. I really should have just went in to check call mode. River was an easy call.

[Senor Choppy]

Just because people raise with crap does not mean they go crazy postflop after limping.

If it was heads-up when he raised you, you might be able to justify calling him down. But here you're using past play that isn't completely applicable to justify going nuts with A high.

[Schmed]

[ QUOTE ]
you're using past play that isn't completely applicable to justify going nuts with A high.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize that. After the hand I kind of laughed to myself..'who was the maniac in that hand'..I don't really see this kind of player in my game all that much. I just *knew* he didn't have anything.

I didn't really have that big of a problem with my flop play but I did think I should have C/Rd the flop. Post flop, Once HU, I should have just check called him.

[elysium]

hi schmed
oh wow....i was tinin' about your earlier post with the pair; right, right, you were raised on the turn, not check-raised. well....;

you know 3 betting might just be worth it, but, i'm not sure. what is striking though is that calling wouldn't be correct, IMO. i don't have the post in front of me, but as i remember you didn't have back-door or any tangible signal that this opponent was behind. i would have likely folded the turn schmed. as far as reraising because you think he picked up on an unhideable tell, well, from first without a powerfully strong hand, no one likes getting raised, and since your not possibly betting against weakness shown, the raise is more viable, so there isn't any harm done with your aquisition of knowledge about your opponent's hand strength; it's not necessarily, therefore, a raise that you would like to discourage.

scmed, right or wrong, i lay the dang thing down on the turn. you won here where i would likely have lost. eh, you get those. i have the turn as raise or fold, and i can't justify the raise and expense. i throw it away.

well played schmed. nice win.

i'm editing here schmed; you have back-door. (just looked at the post again) o.k.; against almost anyone else, i still lay it down. but against this opponent, i want to see what he's raising me with. i think on the turn you call, as i would have, just to gain info. of course, the liklihood of the 6 outs being good is not awe inspiring, but possible.

schmed, could i possibly mangle this post anymore?