i don't think many player would play it this way...

[exist]

at the time, i think all i knew about the SB is that he could sometimes be overagressive. if a blank hit on the river, i would have raised.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB raises, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Results in white: <font color="white">
SB has AQs
Hero wins </font>

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds...

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is how it usually plays then raise or fold preflop.

The guy can have lots of hands raising one limper from the SB.

His flop check screams trap pretty hard though.

Raise the turn, he will often have Ax here. Sometimes AA, but rarely given that you see two Aces.

[exist]

the reason i didn't raise the turn is that i thought he might be betting a hand like KK, QQ, or other pocket pairs, and i didn't want him to fold. i think he's aggressive enough to do this far too often.

i was multitabling at the time, so i can't remember what that table was like. i think the folds were an anomaly because i rarely stay at a table with so little action. if it was so tight generally, then i think i should have raised.

[chesspain]

If you want to play fairly straight forward--raise the turn.
If you want to be aggressive--smooth call the turn and raise the river.
If you want to play scared--call it down.

[Tosh]

At a full table how I play AJo UTG depends on the players I am playing with. At an 8 handed table I think it is a pretty definite raise.

The pattern of this hand is playing scared, I don't like it, learn to be more aggressive or you will be leaving a lot of money on the table.

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
the reason i didn't raise the turn is that i thought he might be betting a hand like KK, QQ, or other pocket pairs, and i didn't want him to fold. i think he's aggressive enough to do this far too often.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok - but if he is that aggressive he probably is going to at least call you down at that point. What if he has AQ, A5, A2? You miss multiple bets in some of those cases when you have higher two pair.

At the very least if your stringing him along to the river you need to RAISE. If your afraid of AK or KK on the river you are playing scared and losing lots of bets -

On this hand you missed at least 1 BB and probably more if he is uber-aggressive.

GL,

Orange

[exist]

yes, it looks like i'm playing scared. but i don't really care what it looks like, i care about maximizing EV. i can be very aggressive when i think it's the right thing to do. when i play AJo upfront, i sometimes call, sometimes fold, and sometimes raise.

on the flop, my opponent (who i mentioned could be overaggressive) checked the flop after raising from the SB and an ace hit. this is highly unusual. this means he either has a hand that is very strong or very weak compared to mine, and it is likely to stay that way. i checked the flop partially because i may be behind, but mostly to get him to bet a PP lower than aces.

on the turn, he's either betting a PP lower than aces, AA, JJ, or a good ace (which i of course beat). if i raise now, he will most likely fold all or most of the PP's, he'll probably call with the good aces, and reraise with the sets. thus, i think a turn raise stops him from giving me money on some of the hands that i can beat (PP's) and that have very little chance of drawing out on me. plus, i can't fold to a 3 bet (not that i want to) because my hand will be good part of the time (if he 3 bets with AK or AQ once in a while).

on the river, like i mention before, i was planning to raise the river if any card besides a K or a Q hit. the reason that i think a K or a Q turns this into a call instead of a raise is due to his likely SB raising hands and the action and final board cards showing. on the river, i put the SB on a number of PP's (which he would probably fold if i raised, AA, JJ, or AK, AQ, and maybe AT but i didn't consider it likely at the time (i guess AJ is possibility too but that doesn't matter).

if he has a PP, a raise won't usually get me anymore money. now for the possible combinations of AA, JJ, and good aces. 1 combo of AA, 1 of JJ, 6 of AK, 8 of AQ. 8 times the AQ calls the raise i get 1 more bet. 8 times i get reraised and lose 2 more bets. so even if you included AT into possible hands he has, their is still no reason to raise.

what do you think of this analysis?

[exist]

oh yeah, i forgot to mention KK in my analysis. tack that on as one more hand i lose 2 bets to on the river.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, it looks like i'm playing scared. but i don't really care what it looks like, i care about maximizing EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing scared is a great way to minimise your EV.

I like how you describe him as over aggressive and then give him a range of monster hands. The check flop may well be strange but if he was getting tricky with AK or AQ you just spiked your 3 outer. I would just play it straightforward and raise the turn.

[Saborion]

I'd raise it pre-flop, but some people limp. I don't think it matters THAT much, but on that table raising seem to be the correct move.

And yes, I would've raised the turn. As Tosh said, you said he was over-aggressive, yet you put him on moster hands. On the turn you still have top two.

[exist]

here's an example of me not playing scared. i'm playing the way i think i can maximize my EV. notice the flop raise with an underpair (in case the BB has a big ace type hand), and 6 outs (and apparently implied odds as well) if the BB has a big PP.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $4.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero raises, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB bets, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.33 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

River: (17.33 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 21.33 BB

my 99 beat his AA.

Tosh, i know the normal way to play the AJo hand. everyone does. i just wonder if there is a better way to play the hand. what do you think of the *reasons* i gave for my play? i didn't think this guy would raise with a weakish ace, i think he would just call. so i didn't really have him on something like A7. i felt that when he checked the flop, he really loved or hated that ace. most people love to see an ace more when they hold AQ rather than when they hold A7. i know this was not verbalized in my mind when i was playing the hand, but it was the reason i put him on a larger ace.

by the way, thanks for all the responses thus far.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't think this guy would raise with a weakish ace, i think he would just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the opponent is overly aggressive a good amount of the time, like you said he was, then he will.

But, if you are claiming that you knew what hands he would raise with and what wouldn't, you would probably have the best position to review this hand and know if you minimized/maximized EV on your own.

Haupt_234

[jujujaja34]

Exist,

"The pattern of this hand is playing scared."

Tosh is dead on here. And, if you are truly concerned with maximizing EV, RAISE THE TURN.

jujujaja34

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
when i play AJo upfront, i sometimes call, sometimes fold, and sometimes raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok.

[ QUOTE ]
i checked the flop partially because i may be behind, but mostly to get him to bet a PP lower than aces.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok.

[ QUOTE ]
if i raise now, he will most likely fold all or most of the PP's, he'll probably call with the good aces, and reraise with the sets. thus, i think a turn raise stops him from giving me money on some of the hands that i can beat (PP's) and that have very little chance of drawing out on me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not ok. Aggressive opponents are not laying down any of the hands you mention to a raise. You missed a bet here.

[ QUOTE ]
the reason that i think a K or a Q turns this into a call instead of a raise is due to his likely SB raising hands and the action and final board cards showing. on the river, i put the SB on a number of PP's (which he would probably fold if i raised, AA, JJ, or AK, AQ, and maybe AT but i didn't consider it likely at the time (i guess AJ is possibility too but that doesn't matter).


[/ QUOTE ]

Not ok. You give your opponent way too much credit here again. He will not lay down most of those hands and you have a clear value raise against an aggresive opponent.

[ QUOTE ]
if he has a PP, a raise won't usually get me anymore money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not ok. It will get you money.

[ QUOTE ]
what do you think of this analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak tight at best. You are trying to justify horribly weak tight play after the fact.

Orange

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Raise the turn. If reraised, I'd just call the river.

[Sarge85]

You said the SB player was an aggressive player.

How would an aggressive player play against one limper? I would suspect a typical aggressive player is going to want to put pressure on you and make you think twice about your hand.

He could have any numbers of hands here. Yes the check on the flop is a bit suspicious, but you still need to raise the turn.

You mentioned not raising because you thought if he had KK or QQ you wanted him to stick around. My guess is that most typical PP players aren’t laying down this hand anyway. I think the raise on the turn is automatic.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Steve S]

Easy raise on the turn here. What do you put him on that you don't raise?

Steve

[exist]

yay! analysis! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if i raise now, he will most likely fold all or most of the PP's, he'll probably call with the good aces, and reraise with the sets. thus, i think a turn raise stops him from giving me money on some of the hands that i can beat (PP's) and that have very little chance of drawing out on me.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not ok. Aggressive opponents are not laying down any of the hands you mention to a raise. You missed a bet here.


[/ QUOTE ]

if i raise the river, i'll still get the extra bet right? plus, i really think he would fold most PP to a raise on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the reason that i think a K or a Q turns this into a call instead of a raise is due to his likely SB raising hands and the action and final board cards showing. on the river, i put the SB on a number of PP's (which he would probably fold if i raised, AA, JJ, or AK, AQ, and maybe AT but i didn't consider it likely at the time (i guess AJ is possibility too but that doesn't matter).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not ok. You give your opponent way too much credit here again. He will not lay down most of those hands and you have a clear value raise against an aggresive opponent.


[/ QUOTE ]

one thing i think is true, that maybe i didn't think about, or maybe i did think about but didn't explicitly verbalize during the hand is that the bet on the river is less likely to be a non-set PP, because there are a bunch of overcards to any PP. anyways, if i raise his river bet and he has 88, i don't think it's likely that he'll call. even QQ will have a tough time calling. i did say he was somewhat overaggressive, but i think he could and would lay many of those PP down. now i know we have all seen crazyuberpsychomanicaggressive players who just couldn't let their hand go. against someone like that i think a raise is in order. i guess one of the problems is describing exactly how this guy played since to say he's "somewhat overaggresive" clearly lacks necessary detail.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what do you think of this analysis?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Weak tight at best. You are trying to justify horribly weak tight play after the fact.



[/ QUOTE ]
when i was playing this hand, i was thinking ahead. i didn't play the hand and then say: "hmm...let me make up reasons for why i didn't raise." my reasons guided my actions, not the other way around. i think it looks weak tight because i didn't manage to get the raise in on the river. if say the 6c hit the river instead of the K, he bets i raise and everyone says, fine you got the extra bet in, next hand.

if my judgement about the groups of hands he's betting on the river is correct, i think the analysis of those possible hands shows that a raise isn't a good idea. if my judgement about which hands he is betting is off (i.e. i should have put him on more hands), then the analysis changes and i should raise. also, if i had a different opponent a raise may be in order.

thanks for your response OrangeHeat

[exist]

hi steve, i chose not to raise the turn, *not* because i was afraid he had a better hand than me, but because he might fold a worse hand that had very few outs. my plan was to raise the river...until a certain card hit that i felt changed the correct play from a raise to a call based on the groups of hands that i put the SB on.

posters who replied that i must at least raise the river said that my judgment was off, and SB could be on a wider range of hands than what i put him on and that this is part of a weak tight pattern. however, i am definitely not as passive as this post may imply.

i think the real controversy with this post is how good my judgment is, rather than what the correct play is if my judgment is correct.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't think this guy would raise with a weakish ace, i think he would just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you describe him as overaggressive ?

[TxSteve]

sorry exist...i'm with everyone else here..

occasionally i play a hand similar to this...but i'm in the SB's shoes..

when i get check called by an opponent..all the way...and i've got top pair..q kicker...and he flips over his flopped top two..

i get a real funny look on my face..

and think to myself..."thanks for not taking more of my money on this one, pal"

i think you left bets on the table...whether that was because you are weak tight...or because you made the wrong reads on this hand...i don't know

[exist]

yes, this is one reason why i mentioned that saying someone is "somewhat aggressive" isn't adequate to fully describe how he plays. there are overaggressive preflop players who stay that way throughout a hand, reraising your flop raise with 9 high. and then there are those who slow down, and realize they aren't going to push you off your hand. and some are just overaggresive semibluffing into crowds when they shouldn't, etc.

[exist]

[ QUOTE ]
when i get check called by an opponent..all the way...and i've got top pair..q kicker...and he flips over his flopped top two..

i get a real funny look on my face..


[/ QUOTE ]

lol. this is why i posted it, it doesn't seem right to play a hand like this.

[ QUOTE ]
i think you left bets on the table...whether that was because you are weak tight...or because you made the wrong reads on this hand...i don't know

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that my opponent had AQ doesn't mean i made a wrong read, it fit right in with the groups of hands that i put him on. now, maybe it's possible that i was lucky he had AQ instead of A7 and my read had indeed been wrong in that i had put him on too few possible hands. while the fact that he had with AQ does not explicitly show that my read was right, it certainly does not show that my read was wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
and think to myself..."thanks for not taking more of my money on this one, pal"


[/ QUOTE ]

what do you think when you have AK, AA, KK, or JJ, see your opponents two pair AJ and realize you have won the absolute minimum?

remember: if any card besides a K or Q hits the river, you get raised, and go, "well, he charged me on the end didn't he?" /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Bob T.]

Nice. Call/call. Check. Call. Call. Can we say self-weighting strategy.

I would raise preflop.

Probably bet the flop.

Probably raise the turn or river.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Keats13]

You limped pre-flop and called a raise.

You checked behind on an ace-high flop.

You called when a J turned.

Now a K drops on the river.

I think if you raise, SB could easily put you on a K. Not only will he call with any ace, he is likely to 3-bet. Pop the river.

[Louie Landale]

The aggressive folks, after 3-betting, do NOT check the flop when an Ace hits unless they have an Ace, hehehe. (He would, of course, bet KK or KQ into the A flop, no?) You should fear the check MORE than a bet. Checking after he checks is correct figuring to induce a bluff you can pay off. Betting after he checks makes sense if you can confidently throw this one away if he raises.

But once you actually make your two-pair you have just GOT to give him a gamble. He's very likely to 3-bet with his AK or AQ making a bigger pot you can pay off. He's already figuring he'd "disguised" his hand by checking the flop and may figure you for a stiff J that you are gambling with; thus he may very well 3-bet with A9.

I can undertand some paranoia when the K hit; but the only hands he can reasonably have to beat you are AA (1), KK(3), and AK(6) for a total of 10; whereas he can have AQ (8) or AT(8) or KJ(6) plus some less likely Ax hands.

- Louie

[exist]

[ QUOTE ]
But once you actually make your two-pair you have just GOT to give him a gamble. He's very likely to 3-bet with his AK or AQ making a bigger pot you can pay off. He's already figuring he'd "disguised" his hand by checking the flop and may figure you for a stiff J that you are gambling with; thus he may very well 3-bet with A9.


[/ QUOTE ]

this possibility of capping the turn every once in a while might out weigh the benefits of trapping him and then raising the river. but then again, he knows i'm probably not raising light on the turn. still, this possiblility of excess action probably makes raising the turn the best play against this player. maybe against a much better player calling the turn could be better, but not in this case.

[Steve S]

[ QUOTE ]
hi steve, i chose not to raise the turn, *not* because i was afraid he had a better hand than me, but because he might fold a worse hand that had very few outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the Party 3/6 game, I don't think you have to fear him folding on the turn. He will call your raise here w/ almost anything.

Steve

[eh923]

I haven't read the other posts yet, so I might be rehashing what Tosh et al already wrote...

The analysis is weak. Plain and simple, you left a lot of money on the table, and it sounds like you're trying to justify it.
[ QUOTE ]
yes, it looks like i'm playing scared. but i don't really care what it looks like, i care about maximizing EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah? And I want to lose weight, but I don't exercise and I eat like crap.

On the flop, your thought process was good...and actually probably deeper than I care to go at a Party table.

The turn is where things went bad...
[ QUOTE ]
on the turn, he's either betting a PP lower than aces, AA, JJ, or a good ace (which i of course beat). if i raise now, he will most likely fold all or most of the PP's, he'll probably call with the good aces, and reraise with the sets.

[/ QUOTE ]
These statements all sound pretty good IF YOUR OPPONENTS PUTS YOU ON A STRONG ACE. Remember, you limped UTG, then called a single raise, and then checked the A-high flop. Your hand doesn't scream strength. There are a wide variety of hands that you could have right now (including KJ, QJ, and JT), with which you could raise thinking you have the best hand. Combine that with an admitted over-aggressive opponent, and your perception of him folding (instead of going into check/call mode) is way off.

The river action is more understandable than the turn, but still lacking.
[ QUOTE ]
on the river, like i mention before, i was planning to raise the river if any card besides a K or a Q hit.

[/ QUOTE ]
With the range of items that he has, you are ahead on the river WAY more than 50% of the time. Even if you would've lost this pot, a raise was +EV.

I like how much thought you gave this, especially if these things were going through your mind during the hand instead of afterwards. Still, the subject of your message hits the nail on the head. What I hope you learn is that there are reasons why many players wouldn't play this hand this way.
eh923

[mr. oats]

[ QUOTE ]
These statements all sound pretty good IF YOUR OPPONENTS PUTS YOU ON A STRONG ACE. Remember, you limped UTG, then called a single raise, and then checked the A-high flop. Your hand doesn't scream strength. There are a wide variety of hands that you could have right now (including KJ, QJ, and JT), with which you could raise thinking you have the best hand. Combine that with an admitted over-aggressive opponent, and your perception of him folding (instead of going into check/call mode) is way off.


[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, eh nailed it here. This is obviously the key to the hand if you review the previous action to this point from HIS perspective. You have shown no strength at all and a turn raise from you likely allows you to cap his likely three bet. Getting the bets in on the turn makes the river play more straight forward as well.

Having capped the turn, I'd bet when checked to on the river and just call if a raise comes, which it could given your description of him.

oats

[adanthar]

This post and the thread surrounding it could all have been avoided if you'd just raised PF.

See what you did? /images/graemlins/smile.gif