My preflop opening first strategy for SH 5/10 PP (crytics appreciated)

[Peter_rus]

At first - sorry my English that's not good enough because of my origin. Here goes detailed preflop strategy that i usually use on 5/10. Of course it may vary dependning on players at table, but basically i use this way. (7k - +2.4BB/100)

I would appreciate any advices or showing crime mistakes.

1 position:

open limp/call: ATs-A6s, KTs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s

open limp/reraise: AKo,AKs-AJs,AA-JJ,KQs-KJs

open raise: AQo-ATo, TT-77,KQo

2 position:
open limp/call: ATs-A6s, KTs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s, A9o,KJo-KTo, QJo,55,
open limp/reraise: AKo,AKs-AJs,AA-JJ,KQs-KJs

open raise: AQo-ATo, TT-66,KQo

CO:
open limp/call: A2s-A4s, K7s-K8s, Q9s, J9s, T9s, A8-A7, KTo-K9o, QTo, JTo, 55

open limp/reraise: AKs,AA-JJ

open raise: AQs-A5s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, AKo-A9o, KQo-KJo, QJo,TT-66

Button:
open limp/call: A2s, K7s-K3s, Q8s-Q6s, J9s-J8s, T9s-T8s, 98s, A7-A3, K9o-K7o, Q9o, J9o, 44

open limp/reraise: AKs,AA-JJ

open raise: AQs-A3s, KQs-K8s, QJs-Q9s, AKo-A8o, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo,TT-55

any suggestions?

My strategy includes many calls on marginal hands on CO and Button, which maybe obvious better to raise or fold, but i feel that this good in distance because when i call late - SB often completes - BB checks and if i get heads up (and it may be with trash) - i often the best. People don't believe in my ace (which they think i must raise PF) and i do good raise/reraise medium and bottom pairs till river. When i sometimes show them slowplayed QQ on river - they become scaring and fold a lot to my raise on flop, opening for me big opportunities of succesful bluff.

As well - often attacks on blind leads to BB/SB reraising, betting hard low pairs, tricking etc., which i don't like (when it's not done by me:-)) while letting BB say check maximize chances of stealing small pots by betting flop more than when he needs to defend in my opinion.

If the game is very loose and often 2+ call your early raises - then all check-raisings removed by raise-reraisings.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
open limp

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a crime mistake

i understand your english - i doubt i can speak your language...

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[kiddo]

I dont limp first in with any hand at 5/10 6max, unless game is very loose.

I have tried to limp first in with small pairs like 22-66, Axs, and some other hands. But my Pokertracker said it didnt work so I decided to fold some of them and raise some. If you always raise first in you dont have to think about "being tricky", they cant read you.

Some decent players limp UTG and UTG+1, but limp first in from CO or button is bad poker, unless MAYBE if you got AA or KK or the blinds are extremly tight (they normally are not).

If you limped first in against me in my normal 5/10 I would type "not very good" in your notes. Why trying to be tricky? If you limp with A5 and i get a free ride with 72o in big blind and hit my 7, there is no way you will win unless you hit. You have lost the pot.

Overall I think you are playing to many hands, some of them should be folded, but that is not the main problem, main problem is that you limp first in with a lot of hands and that isnt working. At least not for me and I got 60 000 hands in Pokertracker on 5/10, 6max.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]

If you always raise first in you dont have to think about "being tricky", they cant read you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, you have 2 options - fold/raise. I don't like very often raising because in that case i get often 1 or 2 callers which, if flop's trash or contains only 1 high card, will reraise you (and will be right because your pocket pairs are less possible than high cards) even with nothing in their hands and you will be in trouble every time (most of the time >60% of time) when you miss your non-pair big cards. If the flop good for blind - he will call flop and reraise or simply raise (if you check, and possibly bluffing against ya just because you show weakness) If you will fold with your high cards - people become to do bluff reraises always.

Ok, lets see if i call - people think - possibly he has marginal hand, possibly containing any card from 2 to A. Good cards will raise preflop, showing strength (but almost these hands will surely reraise your steal raise) - bad cards will check/call. I know than against 2 bad hands mine is favourite in a distance - i WANT to give ya free ride on 27 just for the flops like 379 when i hold K9. Are you sure - you will fold your 27 if i raise from button and just calling preflop? Or maybe you will raise first on that flop from BB? If i miss and there is action (about 37% of time) - i easily fold. If i miss and all miss (27% of time) - i raise. If i hit (36% of time) i will raise/reraise and i'll be the best in a distance. So i have about 63% of advantaging situation for two blinds and much more for only 1 blind. And i do not need to do automatic raise (which is important) to check if someone check-raise me. It's clear that in this situation someone with flopped pair will hit first - not check-raise. And you have nothing - it's easy fold. While - when you raised preflop - it won't be so easy for you.


[ QUOTE ]
unless MAYBE if you got AA or KK or the blinds are extremly tight (they normally are not).

[/ QUOTE ]

I put then in your notes - if limp near or on button - he has a monster :-). While if i call - blinds don't know if i had monster or marginal hands (ok, the most % of time i have marginal hand).

I find always that most people at first often scare just calling near blinds. Apparently because of wide-world-tells of slowplaying AA,KK because they cost more then just a blinds.)

[ QUOTE ]

If you limped first in against me in my normal 5/10 I would type "not very good" in your notes. Why trying to be tricky? If you limp with A5 and i get a free ride with 72o in big blind and hit my 7, there is no way you will win unless you hit. You have lost the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes i lost but if we both hit or you don't hit i win. Of course when you atack blind you can get 0.7BB right now but if blind is loose/tricky (as usual) i think it won't be a good idea because 65% of time you will bet the flop that you miss and from that 65% of time you often will be check-raised.

[ QUOTE ]

Overall I think you are playing too many hands, some of them should be folded

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes maybe you're right. What hands i must exclude for you opinion? And can you tell me what is your PFR according pokertraker? (mine is about 13% - is it normal?)

Should you answer, - anyway thank for reply.)

At the end i don't pretend on final truth, just trying to discuss the tell - why limping is a crime figuring positive aspects of limping.

[King Yao]

you may be interested in the thread I started titled "My table of 6 handed open raising standards" on May 3, 2004. It has my open-raising standards (no other players in yet), and the thread contains some interesting criticsm and comments.

[Nick B.]

I think you really need to go with what you have. You are obviously playing well and I think the shorthanded games can be beat with a variety of styles. I don't know why you really think you need to change anything if you are winning like you are.
I know other people say that you shouldn't open limp, but I have played always raising first in and a mixture of limping and raising. I found the limping works a lot better. With the always raising, I would find myself winning small pots, and never winning big ones. There is a lot of aggression after the flop also and your goal shouldn't be only to win the blinds, but to win lots of chips. A person who raises after you limp is going to keep betting to try and get you to fold. If you limped in with a weak ace and an ace flops, you are going to be ahead more times than not, but the PFR will keep trying to get your to put him on an ace. I find that checking and calling works in that situation. If you open raise with A9o 2otb, and an ace flops, the only people you are going to get action from are people who have you beat (usually that is what I find). By limping in, you disguise your hand and people will pay you off.
I would not drastically change your play by what is said here. I open limp and I don't think I will change that. I play much much better when I do it.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
With the always raising, I would find myself winning small pots, and never winning big ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of aggression after the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Wha? These two things seem to contradict one another. Most of your money in these games is made postflop, and most of it is made against opponents who are too aggressive and make incorrect *bets* or *raises*. That's a little bit different from, say, a low-limit fulltable game, where most of your money is also made postflop, but made against players who make a lot of incorrect *calls*. Oh, don't get me wrong, the shorthanded players make some incorrect calls too, and lots of them, but a larger percentage of their mistakes belong in the "raising when you should call" and "raising when you should fold" category.

What I'm getting at here is that you don't make your money in these games because a lot of players are putting in a few incorrect bets, but rather, because a few players are putting in a lot of incorrect bets.

With that in mind, you shouldn't be afraid of getting the action 2- or 3-way. For one thing, you'll make money preflop by raising with your good hands. For two things, it makes the postflop play easier.

For three things - this is a little-known fact, but raising before the flop is also a selection mechanicsm of sorts, in that it forces players to make a tougher decision before the flop, and those folks who are most likely to make that first decision erroneously are also more likely to make postflop decisions erroneously. If you've got a hand like say AJo (which I think you should fold, by the way), wouldn't you rather play against the dude on our left who is fond of cold-calling raises with A3 offsuit, and the uberloose SB who will defend with any two suited; and not, say, the tight-aggerssive Button, who is ever so happy to overlimp with his 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif?

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
Wha? These two things seem to contradict one another. Most of your money in these games is made postflop, and most of it is made against opponents who are too aggressive and make incorrect *bets* or *raises*. That's a little bit different from, say, a low-limit fulltable game, where most of your money is also made postflop, but made against players who make a lot of incorrect *calls*. Oh, don't get me wrong, the shorthanded players make some incorrect calls too, and lots of them, but a larger percentage of their mistakes belong in the "raising when you should call" and "raising when you should fold" category.

What I'm getting at here is that you don't make your money in these games because a lot of players are putting in a few incorrect bets, but rather, because a few players are putting in a lot of incorrect bets.

With that in mind, you shouldn't be afraid of getting the action 2- or 3-way. For one thing, you'll make money preflop by raising with your good hands. For two things, it makes the postflop play easier.

For three things - this is a little-known fact, but raising before the flop is also a selection mechanicsm of sorts, in that it forces players to make a tougher decision before the flop, and those folks who are most likely to make that first decision erroneously are also more likely to make postflop decisions erroneously. If you've got a hand like say AJo (which I think you should fold, by the way), wouldn't you rather play against the dude on our left who is fond of cold-calling raises with A3 offsuit, and the uberloose SB who will defend with any two suited; and not, say, the tight-aggerssive Button, who is ever so happy to overlimp with his 8 7 ?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I am really not that great of a writer, but I agree with what you are saying I think. Let me rephrase.

I agree that you make money raising your AQ and having A3 call. I raise my good hands and get it narrowed down to 1 or 2 opponents. I am not scared to play a pot heads up or threehanded. I am saying that you shouldn't be raising your marginal hands looking to win the blinds. I find it easier if I limp with my marginal hands and then play aggressively postflop. I will limp UTG with A9s or qjs because I want more callers, if there are a couple calls and a button raise I am fine with that. I don't want to raise A9s or qjs UTG and get 3 bet by the button and have it heads up out of position. Most marginal hands are either going to win the blinds or lose a lot if they are raised because they are up against better hands.
All I am saying is that I don't think not open limping is the correct strategy for myself. I think it is ok to open limp with marginal hands and make the money up postflop.
That being said I won't open limp in the CO or button. My VP$IP is 23% and PFR is 12%.

[James282]

Without elaborating too much, you play way more hands than I would ever dream of. Also, I wouldn't be open limping with any of those hands from any position in a typical game at 5/10. Extenuating circumstances might change this, but this should be the rule and not the exception.
-James

[Peter_rus]

I believe, that the most important thing in this game is preflop and playing it correct will anyway lead to victory even if you not too good flop-player. Just because of people who believe that any 2 may win. If so - in a distance you anyway have in average better cards than your opponents and it's very good. You can become tighter to improve this effect but than you must consider not to tight too deep to override the blinds overall minus.