Gus "hitch-call" - angle shot?

[Ulysses]

In last night's WPT show, Daniel N. bluffed a pot on the river w/ King-high. Gus had something like bottom pair. After Dan bets, Gus picks up the chips, moves to place them on the table for a call, but right before putting them down he pulls his hand back. Then he watches Daniel for a bit longer and tosses the chips in for a call.

What do people think of this?

[whiskeytown]

some guys count it out before pushing in to see what the total of what they got left looks like - he might have done that...as long as he didn't push them forward or say call, I don't think it counts

against an amateur, he might have been making a play, but I find it hard to believe he thought he could get a tell on Daniel N. that way -

RB

[spacemonkey57]

It wasn't really just counting out the chips, it was more of a pump fake. He picked up a handful and swung his arm forward as if to put them in the pile. Then he pulled back and looked at Daniel N. It looked kind of suspect to me although why the hell would hansen do it? It's not like he needs all the help he can get.

[Richie Rich]

Although Gus wasn't watching Daniel when he made (i.e. was physically in the process of...I've got TiVo...I know) the move, I still think his gesture was similar to a "low blow" in a boxing match.

If Gus did that at the half-way point in the tournament, then so be it. But when it's 3-way action at the final table, he definitely did that to measure/elicit some sort of reaction. Gus "thought" for a little longer, looked again at Daniel, then finally made the call.

Just like a pitcher can use sandpaper to put a little more movement on his curve, I think Gus' gesture helped him make the call.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'm not sure. It looked to me like he had 2nd thoughts and stopped short of tossing the chips in. It definitely did not look to me like it was a planned move.

[Ruddiger]

To me it seemed like it was just a second thought kind of move and he wasn't trying to do it to angle shoot.

[thedorf]

[ QUOTE ]
it was more of a pump fake

[/ QUOTE ] I agree, or a head fake in basketball. I really think it is up to the player to sit and wait for a legal bet to be made. I don't think I have intentionally used this move but if I start moving my chips in for a bluff on the river and the guy behind me beats me to the pot with a call, I'm gonna check. The question here is what constitutes a legal bet. Once that is established, I think the onus is on whoever isn't acting. I can remember my 8th grade basketball coach saying, "Stay on your feet. Don't go for the headfake." I think the same applies to poker.

[thedorf]

I don't think it matters whether it was intentional or not. I think we need to establish what does and doesn't constitute a legal bet. Once we do that, I think you should be able to flick your wrist and pull back, count out a raise, or stand on your head and juggle milk cartons if you think it will elicit a response. Your opponent must wait for a legal bet to be made before acting, or pay the consequences.

[Richie Rich]

(As far as I know...) the reason why you can't string bet is because it's not "fair" to put out chips on the table, and then decide whether or not to bet more based upon your opponent's initial reaction when you placed that bet. Intentional or not, I don't think Gus' pump/move was "fair" in the same vein.

Not sure if this already exists, but I think there should be a line on the table...if your hand &/or chips pass that line at any point, then you're obligated to make that bet.

[daryn]

i agree, and think that "line" should be an imaginary one, set by where your cards are. if you put a bet past your cards, it's a bet. makes sense to me.

[Daithi]

I think what he did was wrong. It was unethical if he did it on purpose, and still wrong if he no intention of trying to gain information by faking a bet.

If it becomes legal to fake a bet be prepared for all the fish to start making herky-jerky movements every time they bet/call. Am I going to bet/call? Yes. No. Yes. No. Okay, Yes.

It's bad enough with everyone wearing sunglasses, staring you down, asking how many chips you have left, and taking a full 30 seconds of thought before folding their 72 offsuit.

[schroedy]

(Disclaimer: I did not watch the re-telecast last night so I am not fresh on the move.)

I think at these (very highest) levels, players should not be reacting to anything. Al-Qaeda should be able to bomb the casino without these guys flinching. The emotion should be completely wrung out of their games. They should be in complete control of both their emotions and their expressiveness. Any "reaction" should be a calculated behavior designed to elicit a response from the opponent.

And at the levels I play at one the other hand, this kind of move shows more weakness and indecision on the part of the player making it than anything else and I always make sure to have a good, misleading, response in my repetoire. I don't always use it. But I can.

[Richie Rich]

This is one of those "every other blue moon" instances where you and I might actually agree (but probably not)...what are your thoughts on Gus' move?

[Ulysses]

I'm not really sure. It sure felt like an angle-shot to me. But I have played in very few live tourneys, so I don't really know what constitutes "generally acceptable" behavior. I guess it just came off feeling kinda like a sleazy low-rent move to me and I was just wondering if others felt the same.

[Daliman]

No way, totally planned, but not an angle shot. He WAS looking at Daniel as he did it, almost as if to say "Oh i call, NO WAIT, LEMME THINK A BIT MORE.."
A bit of a bush move, but i've seen worse. Nothing illegal about it either. Prolly just annoying to 2 other top pros that he'd rattle that kinda play out there. There was a definite sweep to his motion, absolutely positive it wasn't just him having second thoughts.

[slamdunkpro]

If he's just done it once I'd say it's just second thoughts, but this isn't the first time Gus has done this.

[Richie Rich]

Apparantely, Phil Ivey uses this tactic on a semi-frequent basis, as well.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Al-Qaeda should be able to bomb the casino

[/ QUOTE ] I strongly disagree, I feel they should not be able to bomb the casino in the middle of the hand, especially when they are playing on a boat.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Ulysses,

Like many of the respondents, I think this was legal, but a bit bushy. I say legal, in that it's very difficult to draw a line between:

* sitting there with 72o as if you're contemplating a call after being reraised pre-flop;

* asking an all-in opponent for a chip count when you have 5-high on an A-Q-J board;

* counting out the chips you'd need to call, then counting out the rest of your chips, saying "I ought to set you all in, but...." then folding;

* counting out the chips you'd need to call, reaching for the table, then pulling them back as if having second thoughts, which is what Gus did, and what several other pros do on occasion.

Yes, you're trying to elicit a reaction from your opponent, in order to gain information before you make your decision. But I think these are all legal -- if perhaps a bit bushy -- because you haven't yet taken any official action.

Conversely, with a string bet, or folding out of turn and then trying to take your cards back, or calling out of turn and then trying to fold to a reraise in front of you, etc., you have taken an official action. You've bet, or folded, or called ... and then you want to change the action.

I don't especially like Gus' move here. But ... *shrugs* ... I can't call it illegal.

Cris

[MMMMMM]

I saw it at a friend's house and wondered too. Was it a forward motion or not? If it had been nearer table level would it have been considered a commitment?