They are just as bad at 5/10

[Guido]

Hi all,

I started my poker carreer at 1/2 at Truepoker about a year ago. I lost about 300$ and went to Stars. There I started at 0.05/0.10 and worked my way up to 1/2. I started playing at Party and Paradise too. At Paradise I worked my way up from 0.5/1 to 3/6 very quickly. Because of the better table selection I started a little project about 2.5 months ago at Empire. I worked my way up from 0.5/1 to 2/4 in about 6 weeks, at this level I stayed for a while because it felt comfortable. Then I moved to 3/6 and didn't see much difference at this level as expected because you guys had told me so. About a week ago I got the BR to move up again and since then I've tried 5/10 a few times. I expected to see a lot tougher competion but it's all just the same IMO. The only thing that doesn't work at this level is raising for a free card when you have AKo on a Qxx board for example. So why is 5/10 tougher than the other limits? Or isn't it?

Thanks

Guido

[Alobar]

I think 5/10 is alot tougher than 3/6. Its the first level jump I've made where I actually notice a difference in the play. 3/6 is just as bad as 2/4. But 5/10 I've noticed a MUCH higher quality of play. There are still a few mororns, but they are the exception it seems. Least thats my opinion after only 2K hands at 5/10

[BigEndian]

Wait a few weeks before making your assessment. 5/10 on Party is very much different than lower limits in a number of ways. If you use PokerTracker, the numbers should reveal some these differences before too long.

- Jim

[Guido]

I was expecting a bigger difference. I only see minor improvements and a lot of morons, maybe not that many as at the lower limits but still a lot. What are the big differences you're experiencing? I've played only 3K hands or so but I only played when the tables had big pots on average.

Guido

[Ponks]

Man, I just made the jump from 2/4 to 3/6 last week. I've been beating 2/4 for a consistant 3bb/100 multi tabling over the course of a few months, and have more then enough bankroll for 3/6 now so I decided to move up. However I am having major problems at 3/6. I just cant seem to win and my bb/100 is around .50 which is pretty sorry. I guess its only about 7000 hands, maybe I'm just running bad for the week? I've been playing tighter preflop, probably too tight in my opinion, and I'm raising a lot more preflop. My VIP is like 12%, and PFR is 8%. I've been going by the 3-bet or fold preflop more, and am folding KQo and AJo to every respected raiser and early position raiser, and sometimes even middle position raisers.

Sorry for hijacking your thread here, I dont have much advice for your 5/10, I've only played like 2000 hands there, but goodluck!

Ponks

[Guido]

Ok, thanks. But could you tell me what I can expect?

Guido

[arkady]

Ponks,

I got about 10k hands in May alone for 3/6 and am down for the month, not a lot, but down.

This is after almost 4BB/100 last month.

Is your 7k sample trivial? yes.

[Ponks]

Alright thanks, just making sure. After runs like this it makes you really question your play and I'm getting really frustrated with it.

[southerndog]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been going by the 3-bet or fold preflop more, and am folding KQo and AJo to every respected raiser and early position raiser, and sometimes even middle position raisers.


[/ QUOTE ]

I sort of thought that was routine?

[adanthar]

I tried 5/10 for the first time yesterday and instantly noticed the difference.

The play is a lot more aggressive than 3/6. The fish are still horrible preflop, but they'll happily raise you with draws on the flop, check raise middle pair and a draw on the turn, and bet the river when checked to with J high. I never figured out how it was possible to check raise two streets in one hand; the answer is to move to 5/10, where I can definitely see somebody betting out all 3.

The downside is that now I feel like I have to call down hands where I've probably lost, but just can't make the same 'he's got me' read that I can at 3/6. If I laid down a hand every time I got checkraised or raised on the turn, I feel like I'd be making a colossal mistake, though at 3/6 it might be a +EV play with TPTK.

[Guido]

You should be folding KQo or AJo to a raise from almost everyposition. Perhaps not in CO or button when you expect a steal but other than that and blind defense it's an auto muck for me.

Good luck,

Guido

[arkady]

Oh yes, i completely understand. Unless you have obscene numbers and hours (50K+) you just dont know. I could very well be a losing or break even player, but my point to you - do not stress /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ponks]

Oh I know it is, but it's new to me. When I was making a killing at the 2/4 game, I didnt really do this, I cold-called way too much, and rarely 3-bet.

Ponks

[arkady]

Kqo, ill agree.

AJo, i dont know - about that one. Some people are notorious at raising AT and KQ, if you got those types pegged, I wouldnt throw away AJ just yet. Dont know if this happens frequently enough at 5/10.

[Guido]

I even fold AQo most of the time. When you don't have a read you should fold these hands to a raise!

To Ponks I want to say that cold calling is almost never the right action. Especially not with KQo, AJo or AQo.

GUido

[BigEndian]

A couple of the differences off the top of my head, there was a similar post that I made about a month or three go that also touched on these in short-form:

The window for excellent, excellent table selection is smaller than lower limits - typically the evening hours EST.

Players have a better understanding of the power of middle pocket pairs in a tight aggresive table.

The overlay is thinner, which directly translates in you are punished more for your mistakes - including paying people off too much.

Most importantly, the quality of play varies very dramatically from seat to seat and thus requires you to pay much more attention and take better notes than lower limits.

- Jim

[Ponks]

Thanks Guido,

I actually fold AQo to an early position raiser, especially if its a solid player just cause i dont feel comfortable 3-betting it unless I know they have real loose EP raising standards. Just had a quick 4 table session for I dunno about 2 hours or so, and my flops seen % was 12%! That's the lowest I've had I think after 500+ hands. Whats yours usually around if you play 10 max? Usually mines around 16-18 but was especially low this time with poor starting hands, but I was still up 23 BB's in the session /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ponks

[BaronVonCP]

I will raise with QK, and AT a bit. Sometimes even something like a9s. But i will not Cold call with AJ, QK, or even AQo against most competition.

This should not seem contradictory to you.

[Brian]

Guido,

The level of aggression at 5/10 is much higher than 3/6. Perhaps you used paticularly good game selection, but in my experience (around 25k hands), the players at 5/10 are much more aggressive than those at 3/6. One of the most noticeable differences for me was that at 3/6 I could literally almost play without even thinking. If they bet, I folded unless I had a good hand. If they checked, I always bet. The 3/6 players have a particularly nice habit of almost always checking to the raiser, which gives you an enormous advantage. They also rarely check-raise, and when they do, or show any aggression at all for that matter, they have a good hand. This has not been my experience at 5/10.

-Brian

[Guido]

At 3/6 it's between 15-20% depending on the table and the cards.

Guido

[Guido]

This is why:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Guido is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Guido folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO (poster) calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (10.20 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

River: (10.20 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 10.20 BB, between UTG+1, MP3, CO and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP3 (10.20 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows 6s Qc (one pair, sixes).
UTG+1 shows 7h Js (one pair, sevens).
MP3 shows Ts Th (one pair, tens).
CO shows 4c As (one pair, fours).
Outcome: MP3 wins 10.20 BB. </font>