Outplayed

[J_V]

This hand is against the very good Asian kid from the previous post. Game is very bad and very aggressive.


I raise in a 7 handed game w/ KQo two off the gun. The only semi-spot in the game was cold calls. Great Asian kid calls in the BB (despite appearances I believe he has a fairly strong hand and certainly not total dust).

Flop comes 865 two toned. Asian kid checks, I bet, cold-caller folds.

Turn 8. Board is 8658.

He bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I think about 4 betting and fold. He shows AKo.

I think he played his hand great. In my younger days I may have folded JJ or better. I had a good read on him in this hand, but not good enough to take the pot away.

Who played good, who played bad and why?

[Enon]

Well, if this kid is really good as you say, he obviously has a good read on you and puts you on overcards, he would definitely call a turn 3-bet from you, getting good odds to hit a A or K (assuming they are clean outs) whether or not he now believes he is behind.

Then he would be faced with calling just one more bet from you on the river, that is, if you have the courage to 'fire one more barrel' if he doesn't improve on the river.

But a question still remains, if you you thought he didn't have much and there was a possibility you could wrangle the pot away from him, did you believe he held exactly AK or better (at least a pair) as you indicate in your post? If so, why did you feel you'd be able to wrangle the pot from him? If he indeed is as good as you describe him, he'd be thinking on 3 levels and be aware that you are attempting to resteal because you are smart enough to see that he is trying to steal with a ragged flop.

His play in this spot is excellent because he read you as weak AND he realized that his hand was probably still best here.

You played well too since you read your opponent well for just overcards, but made the mistake of trying to outplay an opponent who is difficult to outplay and one who has a better hand than yours.

[J_V]

The bet out screams to be raise. Usually when people ask me to take the pot away from them, I oblige. This time, I asked and he took.

[Clarkmeister]

Told you the other day there were some serious players in that game.

[andyfox]

" think about 4 betting and fold. He shows AKo."

Did he flash it to just you, or did he show the table? Not important, just curious.

Also, if you 4-bet and he calls, how do you proceed on the river?

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
He bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I think about 4 betting and fold. He shows AKo.


[/ QUOTE ]

If he were that great, he should never show that AKo...that is unless he's using the show to set up something for later. Still, it's valuable to keep such things under wrap IMO, Make them pay to see it.

Garland

[turnipmonster]

funny, that was my same initial reaction. if this guy is really good, why is he showing?

[M2d]

If he plays great then he:
1) knows you're in a raising spot given the short game and the "spot" behind you.
2) Knows his AK is good against most of your raising hands here
3) knows he can likely move you off of many better hands with the right flop (as you said, you'd consider mucking up to J here).
4) Probably knows that you know the same things about him, and that he can probably (did) get extra chips off of you by "bluffing" with the better hand then coercing you to make a move at him.

That said, I think you both played well. You can probably move him off of smaller aces (will he call with these against a possible/probable steal raise?-I know many who would), beat any non-ace/non pair hands, and may move him off of some bigger aces at times. Unfortunately for you he had a big ace and this was not one of those times.

[M2d]

I think his showing at the end was more a courtesy than anything else. Kind of a "I wasn't lying-I had you beat" kind of thing to a player whom he (I assume) respects. Not any sign of a weak player by any means.

[sweetzer]

"Game is very bad and very aggressive."

That seems to be the main weakness in how you played this hand. Was this game worthwhile to be in? Sometimes I'm too lazy to move when the game gets bad, and it usually costs me.

[Broyle Dunson]

The more I read you high limit guys the more I realize how little I know about it ,but in a 7 handed game when you end up heads up with a board like that,I dont think you could you outplay AK held by a great player,after you lost the cold caller. didnt his chance of holding the best hand go way up. if you shut him down on the turn with bet 4 isnt he correct to call a river bet given the pot size?thanks

[Broyle Dunson]

Hi a few questions,why does the bet scream to be raised ?what did you put him on when he bet the turn?and what hands would a turn raise take the pot away after the flop action ?and why would a fold be the wrong play at that point(his turn bet).Im not being critical whatsoever, Im really curious ,as I am struggling as I try to move up.Thanks

[J_V]

Well he is making a high limit play by only calling in the BB so that he can represent weaker hands.

I know that he knows that and I knew that he could be weak and might try and take the pot away.

The turn bet out is rarely trips. Always raise overpairs.

These plays don't fly at lower limits though because players aren't thinking as much.

[J_V]

Yes, there really are. It's refreshing to see. Very fun game to play in.

[Duke]

Was it JC Tran? He's a HELL of a player.

~D

[PuffsNutz]

I dont like the raise vs a great player/reader,
simply because he's likely to 3 bet you off the best
hand too often.

His 3 bet is good if he knows you dont like to be
pushed around. Or perhaps he saw you raise someone
previously on a similair play.

All of these plays were very opponent specific.
Could be good..Could be bad...Kind of have to be there.

And btw, even when playing the same type of
player in either situation, you shoud randomize
your play when folding/calling/raising are
all close.

Sounds like a lot of these 80/160 players
have one speed.

[mike l.]

"Who played good, who played bad and why?"

you played bad because you played scared but then put money in against him anyways. he read you for big cards up above the board so he didnt really outplay you, he just played his hand very well. your worst play is whatever ego trip or whatever had you sitting in a crap game.

[VeryTnA]

Wouldn't most players ram n jam AK against a likely steal raise? Especailly against that flop. He calls your flop bet and then leads out when the board pairs against your K high. I think you out played yourself.

[J_V]

I come to Vegas to play the best in the world. If I came to make money, I'd stay in front of my computer.

I had my chance this trip to test my skills and it became clear that there is a level of holdem above me right now, which to be honest, I didn't think was possible before recently. I have to be honest, I was shocked at how good some players played. Not that the 2-4 and 80 aren't beatable, just that the super-sharks have a big advantage on me. I used to think the best internet player was the best player in the world - I don't think that is true anymore.


I was also shocked at how bad the high limit games were.

[J_V]

It was a young bald headed kid, who hails from Ny.

I think he's friends w/ Aaron katz, Kenny and John Ma.

Btw, Neverwin beat Katz 300-600 HU /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[J_V]

I talked to this guy later. He said he folds to a four-bet.

It was also clear that this kid is a better player than anyone i'd ever met, which was sort've discouraging.

[Steve Giufre]

J V,


Just wondering if you would ever vary your flop play with a check here. I've played a bit of 80-160 lately, and one thing I've noticed is that I usually the only one who will check a lot of these ugly flops when I miss, and I'm facing more than one oppenent.

I like the turn raise, I agree his lead out is rarely gonna be three eights. I assume that if you had played with this oppenent a bit more, you might have been able to grab some more chips on the turn, and trust your origanal read and follow through with the four bet.

Also, when he three bet you, do you think he was trying to get you off a better hand, or he just put you on some other no pair hand, and thought he was still in the lead? Interstingly, since both are possible, I guess he doesnt have to be sure which is the case for his three bet to be correct.

[turnipmonster]

nyc?

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to be honest, I was shocked at how good some players played. Not that the 2-4 and 80 aren't beatable, just that the super-sharks have a big advantage on me. I used to think the best internet player was the best player in the world - I don't think that is true anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]

when daniel negreauneau used to post on 2+2, he talked a lot about 100-200 players being a level below winning 300-600 players. actually had a big argument with sklansky about it.

at any rate, I would bet lederer, harman etc could crush most 80 players.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
I talked to this guy later. He said he folds to a four-bet.

It was also clear that this kid is a better player than anyone i'd ever met, which was sort've discouraging.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he folds to a 4 bet, given that there's 10.5 big bets (if I counted right) in the pot, he'd have to be right over 90% of the time. Don't know how he could be that accurate and/or know that much about your play. And that's if he had NO CHANCE to spike a card on the river that would win him the pot. Ok even if he decides that he'll have to call two more BBs to keep you honest, and he believes that an A or K has ZERO CHANCE of being good if he spikes one(which is silly IMO), he would have to be right over 86% of the time. Not much difference between 86% and 92% as I doubt if there are many who can estimate that accurately. FWIW the combined chances that the nut nothing is good and if not that an Ace or King will be good if it hits on the river at least some percentage of the time, makes folding to a 4 bet a bad play IMO. Therefore if he was telling the truth (which I doubt btw), no offense I can't see why he's such a great player. I may have missed something here so if I did I appreciate the feedback.

[astroglide]

"bad" can go both ways as an adjective