KK, Ace on Flop, very multiway

[Brian]

Party 3/6. Table is typical, meaning loose with a few weak and a few aggressive spots. I am dealt K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the BB. UTG, loose very passive limps; EP, MP, MP2, LP also come along. SB folds, and I raise. Everyone calls. 6 to the Flop, 6bb.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, everyone calls but UTG. 5 to the Turn, 8.5bb.

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet.

Would you have played it any differently up until this point? I considered checking and calling the entire way, since I couldn't really protect my hand with how large the pot was without check-raising, and I didn't feel comfortable check-raising when there's a decent possibility that I am drawing to 2 outs against the Ace. Also, there weren't any overcards that could come to my King, and betting isn't going to stop anyone with a pair or a draw from continuing.

Thoughts?

-Brian

[Kluddeludde]

Your play depends on whether you think you can push someone off a weak ace, but, in my experience, that happens rarely at party.

I would consider check-folding the flop, but, since you bet, I would definately check-fold the turn with 5 players still in.

Kludde

[Brian]

Wow. My posts always garner lots of interest lately. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet. EP folds, MP calls, MP2 and LP fold. 2 to the River, 10.5bb.

River: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, MP checks. I beat 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

When an Ace Flops, I find that I generally win around 50% of the time that I am just called down, maybe more. Even at the low limits, you'd be surprised how often players manage to find a raise with an Ace or a better hand in a multiway pot (thus enabling me to fold my KK), and also at how often high pocket pairs hold up on an Ace-high Flop even when a lot of people are any-Ace players.

In response to Kludde, I think that merely check-folding the Turn is a bit weak-tight. KK certainly isn't happy when it gets a bunch of Flop callers on this board, but at the same time, all they did was call my bet. One thing that I am trying to learn to get over is don't be afraid of callers! The fact that they called means that they have a weaker hand than normal, not a stronger one, unless they are slowplaying. Sure, that sometimes means that they have A2 or A3, but most people at the lower limits will take one off on the Flop with any two cards, especially in a pot this large, so giving them credit for top pair just because they called is being a bit too hasty in your judgment. Even if I bet and got called by 5 players again on the Turn, I'd still expect my Kings to hold up at a showdown a fair amount of the time.

-Brian

[Kluddeludde]

It does seem a bit weak tight, I know. /images/graemlins/grin.gif However, I don't think your cowboys will be good 50% of the time here. Actually I don't think it will be good enough so often that it will be profitable to call down all the way to the river. If you get 5 callers, there's a very good chance one of them has an ace, many at 3/6 will play any ace, in any position, even when the pot is raised. This is especially true since you are BB and no one will have to call 2 cold.

Add that to the fact that there's a two-flush on board and your chances of winning the pot decreases further.

Of course, this is very player dependent. Did you have a specific read on someone in the hand? You mentioned that there were a few weak and a few aggressive spots in the game, which ones were in this hand? And by aggressive, do you mean good?

Congrats on winning a nice pot, though. I wouldn't have won it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kludde

[Clarkmeister]

"One thing that I am trying to learn to get over is don't be afraid of callers! The fact that they called means that they have a weaker hand than normal, not a stronger one,"

I've posted that around here for years. It is so perfectly applicable to the Small Stakes forum. Be afraid of the bettors and raisers, don't be afraid of the callers. Understanding that and playing fearlessly when they are just calling is critical to beating super loose games.

[Kluddeludde]

But a weaker hand in this situation could very well be a lousy ace. A weak hand, but it still beats his cowboys.

Kludde

[Talex]

[ QUOTE ]
But a weaker hand in this situation could very well be a lousy ace. A weak hand, but it still beats his cowboys.


[/ QUOTE ]

A weak ace is only one of a multitude of weak hands here. The money he wins when the rest of the multitude of callers stay in with him will more than make up for the occasional weak ace cracking his kings. His bet on the flop and the turn puts 3sb into the pot, and he gets 6sb worth of calls. He'd need to be beat more than half the time in order to make this incorrect.

-Tim

[butters]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet, everyone calls but UTG. 5 to the Turn, 8.5bb.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're done. Check/fold the turn.

[MaxPower]

I think this is the ideal way to play this. Checking the turn is just like saying, "Here is a huge pot, please steal it from me"

Start to worry when you get raised.

[Brian]

Hi Max,

What is wrong with a check-and-call strategy? Because I see many benefits.

-Brian

[Kluddeludde]

I agree with you, a lousy ace is only one of many hands his opponent could be holding. What worries me, though, is that he raised preflop, an ace flopped, he bet it and got 4 callers. This would imply that four people caught a piece of the flop. Often, one of those four will have an ace. Add that to the fact that this is a rather loose table, where many players routinely play any ace and I think this is a check/fold on the turn.

Kludde

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Often, one of those four will have an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often? 100% of the time? 90% of the time? 80% of the time? That is the key question.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
This would imply that four people caught a piece of the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more. Have you not been reading what Clark and I have been saying?

-Brian

[Kluddeludde]

Indeed it is, but it's hard to come up with a number without a good read on your opponents (and even then it's tough /images/graemlins/grin.gif). At party 3/6, though, I think you will not be good more than 20-30% of the time.

Kludde

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
At party 3/6, though, I think you will not be good more than 20-30% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the case, I certainly wouldn't want to check-fold the turn.

[Kluddeludde]

I have. Still, it would have to be a really weak player to call your bet on the flop with two undercards to the ace, since you raised preflop.

Also, I totally agree with that you shouldn't be afraid of callers, if you add 'in most situations'. Very few players at party 3/6 will raise a weak ace. They will call and call and call.

Kludde

[Kluddeludde]

Why not? You have no value in betting with only a 20-30% chance of winning and you will most likely need to pay $12 to see the showdown if you check/call (not necessarily, but likely). Or am I looking at the pot odds in the wrong way?

Kludde

[Kluddeludde]

I did a quick calculation and everyone except me is indeed right (if my assumption of 20% is correct). Next time I'll do the calculation first and then respond. Sorry about that guys.

However, lol, I do see more benefits with check/calling, then betting.

Kludde

[MaxPower]

If your hand will be good on the turn 25% of the time, you don't want to check-fold the turn because of the dead money in the pot.

Your bet is not a value bet but it does have some value. First, it prevents someone with a lower pair from stealing the pot from you. Second, you might get someone to fold who would outdraw you on the river (e.g. a 2-outer). Third, you can probably safely fold if you are raised - especially if there are multiple callers. Fourth, you don't give a free card on the times you are ahead.

I'd rather bet out and fold to raise than just check-call the turn and river.

[Kluddeludde]

You have some good points. The benefit with check/call, though, is the possible raise from someone holding a flush draw.

Kludde