How to play this draw?

[Dave Park]

I've lurked here for a while, and on posted on rgp occassionally. I've generally found the discussion of hands on this forum much more helpful so get some feedback here (though I've posted this on rgp as well).

I'm looking for help with the thought process on this hand, and I would appreciate comments on all streets- particularly on the flop play.

PP ten handed 15/30 game. I'm in late mp (3 from the button) with T9s. One loose player limps up front and its folded to me. I haven't played many hands at the table, so I figure I might be able to use that to my advantage here, so I raise.

I get called by the player to my left (very loose) and by the big blind- so four people for 8.75 SBs.

Flop is a rainbow QJ4 (none of my suit), giving me an open end straight draw. Its checked to me and I bet. Guy on my left calls and so does the big blind. However, the early limper now check raises...so here's where the decision (and my confusion) comes in.... I'm split between re-raising and calling.

By re-raising, I might get a free card and I might get the button (though that probably has very little value at this point. I could also potentially clean up some outs weird outs that would have a re-draw on me if I hit the turn- but I didn't really think about that at the time- I was more concerned with the free card. Furthermore, if every one calls my raise, I'll be getting 3-1 odds on a little worse than 2-1 that I'll hit.

On the other hand, by re-raising, I run the risk of knocking out the player on my left and the BB which obviously hurts the odds on my draw.

Anyway, I decide to call.

The turn is a near perfect 8, giving me the nut straight, but it puts two clubs on the board. The big blind checks, early limper bets, and I raise. Player on my left folds, and BB calls.

River is a blank, but puts the a third club on the board. Checked to me and I bet, BB check raises, early limper calls, and I throw up in my mouth. After that, I fold.

BB shows 46 clubs for the flush; early limper shows Q4 for two pair,and I spit the puke out of my mouth and move on.

So what do you think?

In hindsight, I probably would have won the hand if I had re-raised on the flop (it would have been tough for the BB to call two back with just bottom pair and a backdoor flush). But over the long haul, I think I probably make more money by calling the flop check raise, rather than re-raising. However, I am starting to wonder if that's
true.



Thanks.

[Luke]

Welcome to 2+2.

I think simply call the flop after being checkraised is fine. There's no reason to be overly concerned about being outdrawn by backdoor flushes IF you make your straight. That will happen such a small percentage of the time.

As for the rest of your play, I really don't like the preflop raise - I would have folded with only one limper and 4 more players to act if this was a typical aggressive Party 15 game.

And on the river, I think you need to make the call even though the flush got there. If I counted correctly, it looks like you're getting 19 to 1 on your call and you have a very strong hand. I think that an unknown Party 15 player has a better than 6% to be checkraising something worse than a flush there.

If he turned over a set of 4s or some such nonsense, you really would have puked, losing a pot that's 19 big bets large.

Luke

[balkii]

You folded the nut straight in a huge pot in a party 15/30 game because of a backdoor flush possibility?!?

Good read but...terrible fold.

[SossMan]

Hi Dave,
Welcome to 2+2.

I would have folded preflop since there was only one limper and many behind you to act.
I think the flop play is fine.
Turn plays itself.

Why bet the river if you're going to fold to a check raise. The fold is really bad, IMO. I would have bet out, too, but called the ch/raise. There's no chance on God's green earth that MP has a flush. I'm generally not too woried about backdoor flushes when I have the nut st8. I think you'll have the best hand, even after being check raised, about 25% of the time, which makes it a really easy call.

Again...welcome!

[builtiz]

Obviously you put him on a flush draw when BB cold calls raise, right? So when the flush get there why foolishly bet when you know the BB probably has the flush.

I liked the way you played the rest of the hand, although I think I might have just limped in instead of raising. Then you could have raised early limper right off the bat and made the BB fold. Its definetly one of those tough decisions (whether to push the draw or let ppl come in).

I would try and trust my gut more and check the river if you are alerted on the turn that someone might have a draw which gets there on the river.

[Dave Park]

I agree with all that this was an oddly played hand with regard to a couple aspects. I usually will fold this hand pre-flop in this spot, but if I'm ever going to play it, and I'm second in the pot, I'm going to raise with it.

On the turn, when the BB called two cold, I thought the flush draw was a strong possibility. However, when it checked to me on the river, I guess I didn't have the will power to let it check through....so I bet.

Obviously, if I knew I was going to fold to check raise, then checking was a much better idea. But, to be honest, I really did know I was going to fold until I hit the fold button. I really didn't have a plan on what I was going to do if I got check raised.

I am not good at making big laydowns with strong hands (and this one was pretty huge) even when I'm almost 100% sure that I'm beat. But this time for whatever reason, when the BB raised I just knew he had the flush.

Still, if this was posted by someone else I'm sure I would say there is no way to make that fold.

Thanks for the comments.