Huge (possibly terrible) fold against tough multitabler and 2+2 lurker

[Enon]

I'm really torn about this hand that I recently played and specifally about my turn raise. This is one of those folds which I normally would be an easy calldown but against this opponent whom I've played with a number of times, at the time I was fairly certain that I was behind here to either AA or JJ and it seemed highly unlikely that this player would cap preflop on the button with AJo or AJs, Kjo or KJs AND then proceed to just flat call the flop.

A little more info on my opponent, I've seen him slowplay big hands like this before and going back over previous hands that he'd played, it seemed very unlikely to me that he'd overplay a hand like AJs or AJo against me. He is very tricky as well

But considering the size of the pot, I now feel as if I made a terrible laydown but am not so sure my turn raise was all that bad, even though it put me in a tough spot when it came back to me 3-bet.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Enon is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="CC3333">Enon 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, Enon calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, Enon checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Enon calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, Enon checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="CC3333">Enon raises</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, Enon folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 18 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 17 BB, won by Button.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by Button.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. Button wins 18 BB. </font>

[UMTerp]

OK, my biggest complaint is on the flop as well. I think you have to raise it, and expect either UTG or Button to reraise, which would drive out raggedy aces and kings.

I still think the fold is marginal, though better than when I first read the post. I'd still probably call him down here.

[DcifrThs]

enon,

what makes this fold terrible? theres another player in the hand it seems very likely that he has precisely as you said, AA or JJ and that he waited until the opportune time to maximize the # of bets in the pot.

why would he get "tricky" with 2 players to contend with?

i think your fold is fine and i would have gone off for a few more on the flop. i don't like the flop check and call. with QQ he can only really have those big pairs so TT is the nly one you're ahead of. i think i'd c-r and muck to a 3bet and bet out and fold to a turn raise if he calls the 3bet.

qq isn't in good shape against his most likely hands and i think you're fold was called for.

-Barron

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
enon,

what makes this fold terrible? theres another player in the hand it seems very likely that he has precisely as you said, AA or JJ and that he waited until the opportune time to maximize the # of bets in the pot.

why would he get "tricky" with 2 players to contend with?

i think your fold is fine and i would have gone off for a few more on the flop. i don't like the flop check and call. with QQ he can only really have those big pairs so TT is the nly one you're ahead of. i think i'd c-r and muck to a 3bet and bet out and fold to a turn raise if he calls the 3bet.

qq isn't in good shape against his most likely hands and i think you're fold was called for.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree about my flop play. Looking back at the hand history, I was surprised that I'd just checked the flop.

Thanks for you input /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DcifrThs]

are you sure terp?

i'm sure you read the turn action. he raised after it was 100% clear that he was against a very good hand and even waited to do it. if he has 77,99,tt why would he cap preflop and wait it out like that on the turn.

i disagree that you're ahead enough to call down...but at this point, given the size of the pot it may be worth it to call down since he can be "doing whatever necessary" to win the pot.

but i think i'd fold here too b/c it just doesn't seem even close that he has AA or JJ.

-Barron

[Garland]

There is no way this hand does not see the light of a showdown. Button could have a single J (but with the 4-bet preflop it's unlikely).

You're also just about getting odds to catch one of two Q on the river in case you're wrong (about 23:1 with 19:1 pot odds). Call his butt down.

I also agree that you needed to do more on the flop, not check and call.

Garland

[JeffO]

Enon, its about time I come clean with you on this hand so that you don't lose any more sleep over it. I had pocket Jacks. I hope you feel a little better now.

Although can you ever really trust an opponent to tell you the truth? Just kidding. JJ

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
Enon, its about time I come clean with you on this hand so that you don't lose any more sleep over it. I had pocket Jacks. I hope you feel a little better now.

Although can you ever really trust an opponent to tell you the truth? Just kidding. JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks man, do I still owe you $10? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[JeffO]

"Thanks man, do I still owe you $10?"

Next time your the SB and I'm the BB and its folded to you, and your holding AA. Fold it to me and were even.

[Garland]

Note that even if you suspect that has JJ specifically at the time you made the fold, you now have one additional out on top of the 2 Qs. The case 8 will also make your hand a winner with a Q kicker and you would be getting proper odds to call the turn (46:3 = 15.33:1 vs 19:1 pot odds).

Garland

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that even if you suspect that has JJ specifically at the time you made the fold, you now have one additional out on top of the 2 Qs. The case 8 will also make your hand a winner with a Q kicker and you would be getting proper odds to call the turn (46:3 = 15.33:1 vs 19:1 pot odds).

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice, a point I and other posters completely overlooked.

I only wish I was a good enough player to be able to calculate those odds on the spot and be able to apply them.

[Trix]

Actually its 41:3 = 13.67:1 as there only are 44 unknown cards with the 2 Jacks beeing in his opponents hand.

[Garland]

Thanks, I realized my math error after I went to sleep. Hand nightmares about it...really /images/graemlins/smile.gif

52- 6cards known - 2 assumed Js = 44 cards. Then the odds are 41:3. An even better proposition than what I originally posted.

Garland