God i love this game

[Apocalypse]

I loved this hand so bad, felt so good about it i just wanted to share it with all you guys. God i love this game..

For your amusement:

POKERSTARS 5/10 (6 MAX)

Have been sitting at the table for a while, and have been whipping BBs (whos pretty typical) butt for a while now. Mostly by putting lots of aggression on the flop for either forcing freecards or protecting toppairs. Cards have been nice for me i must say, so he's gotten a bit tilty when headsup with me. Particularly on the flop.

I'm dealt KJs in the CO.

preflop: folded to me, i raise, button folds, SB folds, BB 3-bets, and i call

flop:

J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets and I raise, BB calls

turn:

7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, I check

River:

10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB bets and I call

results in white below:

<font color="white">BB shows JJ (set of jacks)
CO shows KJ (pair of jacks)
BB wins pot</font>

Let me say i normally bet the turn with this hand just about 10 out of 10 times. My read on him and his flopaction decided me to take another line of play precisely at this point of time during the session. When it works out, when you are right....god it feels great. After showdown (where i showed him my hand as well) i just posted: "I win, you lose" what put him over the edge completely and got me great action later on /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[scrub]

You must have read Caro's book of online tells. Because unless his little pokerstars avatar was looking at his virtual chips when the flop came off, this looks like a good way to minimize your profits in the long term...

scrub

[Apocalypse]

if you say so /images/graemlins/smile.gif

no but to the point, i think that if you think reads online cannot get a depth that would bring you to these kinds of decisions you are wrong. I don't need to see the ppl i play with to try to filter their patterns, style, behaviour, tiltability and so forth. At this point in my short poker-career i consider the ability to read my fellowplayers as my biggest strenght. Thin valuebetting and preflopplay on the other hand are still weaknesses i'm practicing hard on at improving. The continuous analysis of the players and me adapting to it is for me the biggest thrill i get out of poker (where other ppl could consider one of the many other aspects of poker as their main rush).

And yes, if my reads bring me to such an out-of-line play as presented, im prepared to follow it. What is building my confidence in these situations, is that im way way more often right than wrong (what sadly enough happens as well of course leaving me feeling like a fool). In that respect i would say these kind of plays are absolutely contributing to my profits and as an added bonus giving me the most fun of all i get from poker.

However, i am curious about how other posters feel about this. What kind of depth would you think a read online can contain?

ps. In this hand, if he would've 3-betted this flop, i would've called and raised the turn /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[fyodor]

One online tell I find all the time is when someone takes forever "thinking" about their hand on the end and then bets. It's like they are trying to project "Oh I don't know. Do I really have anything here?"

Something like 90% of the time they have close to the nuts.

[Apocalypse]

yes, those are fun to watch /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[sthief09]

maybe I'm weird, but I'm usually not happy after I lose a hand.

[Apocalypse]

i honestly can say i am more happy about losing this hand this way than winning a flopped nut fullhouse auto-raising all the way to the end against a flopped set or whatever without having to put any kind of thought to it.

but maybe thats just me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

edit:
PS well not capped on every street though, cuz that...THAT would be AWESOME

[Peter_rus]

I often use bluff raise on river after big pause for solid players. It's very fun to watch foldings cards, that surely beat my low for flush.

[stripsqueez]

sometimes but not very often i know - knowing when you know is the issue - lots of losers who think they know but are in fact projecting what they want or feel not what they know

i smile inside everytime i hear someone say "i knew he had it but i had to call" - if you knew you wouldnt call - it may sound like i'm splitting hairs based on a figure of speech but i think its more - what such a person "knew" is that it was likely there opponent had it - whats critical is recognising there is a difference between knowing something is true and thinking its likely

i like it - i firmly believe you should be open to do something technically wrong if you think its right this time - at its zenith you dont even need to be able to explain why its right - i refuse to concede i cant find the winning decision everytime i make one as impossible as it often seems that i could get it right given the disparity between technically correct and actually right

i'm not too sure about the extent of on-line "tells" - its less than live - "knowing" is probably a 1 in 1000 hand experience for me

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[daryn]

this is always said, but i think timing tells online are pretty bogus, as the player could be doing anything from scratching his balls to playing 6 tables, or in astroglide's case both.

[BugsBunny]

i'm not too sure about the extent of on-line "tells" - its less than live - "knowing" is probably a 1 in 1000 hand experience for me

Very true. The last time I "knew" (for sure) I folded a set of K's on the river for 1 bet, closing the action. Player to my immediate left had check/cold-called my turn raise with no hesitation, with a 2 flush from the flop (and no straight draws) on board.

Flush card came on the river. I folded to his river bet (and the pot was rather big at the time since I had obviously been betting and raising the whole way), closing the action. Player in-between us had called (I knew I had that player beat). He had the flush.

This is one online tell that so far is pretty accurate (almost 100%) from what I've observed. If someone cold-calls a raise, especially a turn raise, with *no* hesitation they're extremely likley to be on a flush or OES draw. In any other circumstance they have to pause at least momentarily to decide if they want to call, fold, or re-raise. If players have acted in between the raise and their acting then they've had time to think and this tell doesn't apply.

[scrub]

I agree.

And let's not forget the porn delay factor.

scrub

[Apocalypse]

yes i think this hand is an extreme example i will see really just about once in a thousand hands. What is sharpened by thorough analysis of ones opponent i guess is what lots of ppl would call 'gut-instinct', since that is where the real 'knowing' is located. When one concentrates intensely on the style of play and its changes during a session one can to a great extent filter out the abnormalities. They just pop out quite clearly after a certain amount of reading. The example presented here is a case, where just an hour of study all comes together in one hand. The flop call had me baffled for a sec, cause it just wasn't a possibility for him to do at this time during the session with us 2 playing heads up on the flop. Unless...he had a monster and wanted to stick it in me and get his revenge on the turn. This is an extreme example, probably why i like it, but intense reading where one is able to exlude wishful-thinking on ones own part delivers on a much wider field. Calling down with A high for example is a thang im getting more and more adequate in (wich is paying up heaps of cash) because of what i think are the fruits of my way of study. Valuebetting even bottompairs is another thing that benefits because of this. The fact that we are online doesn't change the possibility of obtaining advanced reading skills (i don't think one can ever hit the roof). When i ask you to play online, it ain't any different if i would ask you to write an essay online. You can't fully block out some kind of uniqueness that is inevatibly concealed within your session or paper. In that unique personalised marge within the universal guidelines of good pokerplay that is followed by 'all'(ahum) there are a couple of bets to save or obtain. With 5 opponents, it can be quite some money, and on the longterm it could even be essential i guess.

i hoped this brabbling made some sense /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

As far as online tells go, im not really that much interested either outside the obvious ones.

[Apocalypse]

i don't get why ppl think i was asking or telling about tells here. cuz i wasn't

[Apocalypse]

mmm perhaps i should also point out i do not think gut-instinct is some "magical" place in our being where wisdom lies that goes beyond our senses. It is merely the product of the education we make out of everyday life and culture that, if properly trained, results in quite the accurate warningsignals before we even can put this into a coherent rational thought.

[fyodor]

This check/cold call 2 bets with a 2 flush is something I always pay attention to as well. Just played this hand where I was the one with the draw. I figured if I cold called and then bet if I hit I would get less action so I did this:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, MP calls, Hero calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB bets, BB folds, MP raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, MP calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls.

River: (7.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP shows Kh Qd (one pair, kings).
Hero shows 4c Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.50 BB. </font>

[scrub]

I certainly wasn't--I don't think they really exist, at least not with the sort of confidence interval that should make a person rely on them. I was being sarcastic because I think you miss a bet here against a lot of opponents, although I'm prepared to believe that against a particular opponent who you had been actively engaged with multiple times in the past hour this check might be correct. It's the astronomical minority of times, though.

scrub