15-30 hand: Where is the cutoff point preflop with KJs?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

OK.

Assume you have just sat down at a 15-30 game (full). You haven't played even one whole round yet. You're in late position. You have KhJh. Some # of players fold... and someone opens for a raise.

How many players need to have folded before you will play the hand?

Anyway...

I called. I am not yet specifying how many players folded. I assume there are reasonable debates for both reraising and calling, but of course these would be dependent on this and that... bla bla bla. The real debate here is where is the cutoff point for FOLDING KJs against an EP raiser.

Another cold calls behind me. So does the BB. Four players.

Flop was J T 6 with two diamonds and a heart.

The preflop raiser bet and I raised. The late player called and the blind folded, the bettor also called.

The turn was a trey, offsuited and trashy. Twas checked to me, I bet and they both called.

The river was the 4h. Checked to me, I bet, they both called.

The results are irrelevant. Obviously if UTG raised, I would usually toss KJs, unless I knew something about UTG that would make the play change to a call or reraise. But here, I was in a new game. Where is the cutoff point preflop?

al

[Clarkmeister]

Until I know they are loose enough that I can 3-bet, I fold unless they are within 2 of the button. If the unknown openraises within 2 of the button, I will 3-bet. I'm not calling.

[astroglide]

for calling? the cutoff point is right around the mark where i start playing bad. if i fold i'm playing good, and if i threebet i'm either playing good or really bad.

[Senor Choppy]

Default play should be to fold. You need to suspect something to consider 3 betting. I can't imagine a situation where I'd just call.

I don't even call raises w/ KQs by default.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
How many players need to have folded before you will play the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I need a lot of them to call, not fold, before I think about calling. This is a pretty easy fold to an EP raise and some folders. Against an unknown LP raise, maybe I'll 3-bet. Calling v. an early raiser in what will be a small field seems silly.

[elysium]

hi al
you want 3 folds here al, and, FWIW, you should reraise with increasing determination the farther along the position of the initial raiser is. now, counter-intuitively al, if the raiser is cold-called before the action gets to you, you should fold, IMO. and BTW, calling isn't such a great idea because of the effect of an additional cold-caller. you need to discourage that al. if you had AQo, however, you should almost always call. AQo likes multi-way action whereas the KJs likes to get tactical heads up. this is also very counter-intuitive and not etched in stone by any means. actually, there are many instances exactly the opposite. you are having trouble in this area and you can get by with winging it here al, because no matter what you do, the ev. result of your best efforts in the case of these group 3's is not far from the results of winging it, unless you do something like call a raise from UTG positions with KJs or won't laydown the AQo post flop after getting pre-flop surprising strength from behind. even here though al, your best arsenal resides somewhere in the text of your unwritten game away from the books, you do need to understand the basic concepts in order to fully deploy, so you need to know KJs plays well heads up, AQo plays well multi-way. yes al, i understand how unconventional this information is, but i have no reason to question the viability of the source. personally though, like yourself, i don't agree with that fully. i grit my teeth and hope the poker elders are correct and of course, that i understood correctly what was being communicated. i can see the KJs playing well heads-up, but AQo multi-way? and no, i haven't really been able to verify this by first hand experience. i'm not doing stellar with the AQo multi-way, but i have no reason to question the accuracy of the advise yet, but could in the future. and no, i'm not completely sure about KJs either.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
if the raiser is cold-called before the action gets to you, you should fold, IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely would have.

If the raiser had been in one of the first three positions, I also would have folded.

I am not so sure about your musings on AQo vs. KJs, but then I don't want to start another huge "AQ test" thread, so we'll let that part slide.

When I saw what they had (checked the hand history, my hand was good and they both folded without showing), I realized I had made a mistake by not reraising preflop. However, hindsight is 20/20, so that doesn't really count. The opener had QJo and the cold caller had T9o! Or DID I make a mistake!

After I played the hand, I started to wonder whether I should have just reraised before the flop anyway. I think this is a perfectly viable strategy, but then KJs is not bad for a multiway pot, so I don't think calling is terrible. However, it may in fact not be as good as reraising (which is the sentiment so far, for the most part). I am curious to see if anyone can offer some sort of quantitative difference between calling and reraising.

Also, I have now specified that the opener was in middle position, in fact, four off the big blind.

Gotta start debating these things more often. Since I am planning a one-way trip to vegas in early june, I will be playing a lot more limit hold'em ring games, and probably at the 10-20 through 20-40 range most of the time. Gotta brush up on the finer points of limit hold'em again!

al

[Ulysses]

However, it may in fact not be as good as reraising (which is the sentiment so far, for the most part).

You should re-read the responses. The sentiment, for the most part, is that you should fold.

[DiamondDave]

A fold is in order if you don't have a read on the raiser or the other players in the pot.

If you feel comfortable in the game, you have a read on the raiser, and there are a lot of players in the pot who rate to have a trash hand, and the players behind you will all fold if you make it three bets, then a case can be made for reraising.

[Turning Stone Pro]

against the typical 15-30 PP crowd, i call or raise everytime. i would never muck it.

Joe

[CrackerZack]

And when that horseshoe falls out of your a$$, you'll be returning your layaway furniture.

[Turning Stone Pro]

head up anytime, Zack.

[CrackerZack]

Rake on party sucks it. Stars?

[Turning Stone Pro]

whats the rake difference between the two?

[CrackerZack]

actually they're the same, UB is only .50 heads up. Or Heads up SnG which both stars and UB have. I'm in for whatever.

[Ulysses]

HU rake on UB is capped at $.50/hand. I believe Stars is the same. Party is $1. But Stars has a much better deal - HU SNGs w/ a fraction of the rake you'll pay playing HU at a ring table. Plus, HU blinds on Party are backwards.

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, HU blinds on Party are backwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this not surprising?

Also, it should be noted that the hijacked portion of this thread ties in nicely with the long discussion from a couple of weeks ago - on a couple of fronts. Namely, online peen-waving contests are both retarded AND gay.

[Senor Choppy]

Uh oh, he insulted your furniture.

It's on.

(Instead of playing heads-up to settle this, my vote is for a dance off).

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
HU rake on UB is capped at $.50/hand. I believe Stars is the same. Party is $1. But Stars has a much better deal - HU SNGs w/ a fraction of the rake you'll pay playing HU at a ring table. Plus, HU blinds on Party are backwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are quickly turning into the Don King of headsup poker grudge matches.

[SinCityGuy]

Fold, unless the raise comes from late position. If I know the late position raiser only raises with premium hands, then I would still fold. Otherwise, I would 3-bet.

KJs is another of those overvalued hands in the hand rankings. Yes, you can make a second nut flush with it. More often, you can be dominated by AK or AJ from an early raiser.

[risen]

peen-waving < cock fights.

And it's not even close.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I meant if the opener had been in late enough position so that folding was no longer prudent.

al

[Trix]

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