Middle East Terrorists Kill 20. Bush: oh well

[Chris Alger]

Every terrorist is at war with civilization, and every group or nation that aids them is equally responsible for the murders that the terrorists commit. President Bush (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040518-1.html) yesterday, addressing Israel lobbyist AIPAC

On the heels of Powell’s demand that Arab leaders more forcefully condemn terrorism, U.S. officials in both parties continue to relish America’s role as chief patron of the most hated terrorists in the region, the Israeli Occupation Forces.

Israel's military killed 18-20 people yesterday to accomplish what Amnesty International (http://web.amnesty.org/aidoc/aidoc_pdf.nsf/Index/MDE150332004ENGLISH/$File/MDE1503304.pdf) calls “grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention” and “war crimes,” namely the continued mass destruction of civilian housing. Senior Labor MP joined EU, UN and Arab protests, accusing the Israeli armed forces of “slaughtering large numbers of Palestinians day after day, and demolishing huge numbers of homes ... in violation of international law and human decency.” No suicide bombers were killed or appartently even targeted, but they managed to shoot up an ambulance pretty well, as the following photograph (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2693.shtml ) attests. In Newspeak, this is called “self-defense” in the “war against terror.”

From the Beruit Daily Star (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&amp;categ_id=2&amp;article_id=39 56 ): <ul type="square"> Israel's Army killed at least 20 Palestinians on Tuesday in the heaviest raid inside the Gaza Strip for years, as tanks and infantry thrust into the Rafah refugee camp despite an international outcry.
The assault on the camp drew UN and EU condemnation because of Israeli threats to destroy hundreds of Palestinian homes in the area, while Arab governments said the tactics constituted war crimes.

The Israeli Army claimed there were no plans for systematic demolition during what it called an open-ended operation to stop the smuggling of weapons through tunnels from nearby Egypt.
US President George W. Bush called the Gaza bloodshed "troubling" but, addressing Jewish-Americans in a tight election campaign, told the powerful pro-Israel lobby group the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) that Israel "has every right to defend itself from terror."
The raid exacted the highest single-day Palestinian death toll - militants and civilians alike - since May 2002, when 23 were killed in an army sweep into the nearby Khan Younis area. [/list] Palestinian sources described the action as follows: “The Israeli military broke into many houses in Bedir and Tel Sultan neighborhoods and occupied the roofs, opening fire on any people in the streets. The Israeli military also targeted the electrical stations, shooting out the electricity in most Rafah neighborhoods. The tanks on Salah Adiin Road are opening fire at cars and people on this main street, and in the western neighborhood in Sofia area. Those soldiers detained three ambulances and held their M16s at the medics through the ambulance windows. Iraeli occupation forces attacked an ambulance while it carried injured patients to the European Hospital in the northeast of Rafah, and detained another ambulance on its way. (Palestine News Network (http://palestinenet.org/english/))

CBS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/27/world/main609057.shtml ) described one incident, when 13-year-old Ahmed Mughayer and his 16-year-old sister Asma “were killed when they ventured onto the roof of their three-story apartment building to bring in the laundry, their father Mohammed said. The family said the teenagers were hit by shots fired from an Israeli army position on the sixth floor of the neighboring building.”

Predictably and no doubt intentionally, the vast majority of victims were civilians. According to CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/18/mideast/index.html ), "The incursion left 20 Palestinians dead and 35 wounded, according to Palestinian security and hospital sources. The dead included three members of Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a military offshoot of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, and two children, the sources said. The remaining dead were civilians, they said."

The carnage hewed closely to the pattern followed by Israeli terrorists for the last four years, during which “almost all of the 2,886 Palestinian fatalities since September 2000 have been civilians, about eighty of them “collateral damage” to 230 extrajudicial assassinations, which are themselves violations ofthe Fourth Geneva Convention.” (Stanford Professor of Middle East history Joel Beinin in this week's Nation).

[jdl22]

LOL. You never cease to amaze me with your "logic."

Oh, sorry Gamblor hasn't responded yet. Guess I was a little premature.

[hetron]

This is the stuff that gets people so angry at the US. It coddles its allies (in this case, Israel) and has a different standard for "terrorism" and "ethnic cleansing" depending on whether you are in Iraq, Cyprus, Kosovo, Afghanistan, or the gaza strip. People around the world see this and then see Bush talk grandiosely about freedom and democracy and know he is full of crap.

[Utah]

I bet this post really impressed your Hamas, PLO, and Al Qaeda friends.

Hell, I bet it might even get you some sort of year end award in your Hamas Support Group. maybe something like, "American Who Hates His Country the Most Award" or maybe "Best US Citizen in support of Suicide Bombers"

[hetron]

Do you really believe anyone who criticizes US foreign policy backs Al Qaeda and Hamas? Why do you associate the two? Because Rush Limbaugh told you to?

[Utah]

No, I believe Alger is a terrorist supporter and I believe he hates the U.S. and wishes it harm based on his long history of anti-American posts.

In a recent post he called someone that would sabatoge a U.S. military mission a hero and in another recent post he called a U.S. soldier that died in the line of duty a idiot who deserves to be slapped.

BTW - your argument is a weak one and can just as easily be turned. "So, you think that everyone who criticizes the war is being patriotic? Or,is that just what Michael Moore told you?"

[Gamblor]

Rafiach is the main smuggling pipeline for Strella shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles, Sagger anti-tank missiles, and Kassam long-range rockets that wait on the Egyptian side of the border to be smuggled through tunnels into the Gaza Strip.

Weapons such as these with a long-distance capability threaten not only Israeli settlements within Gaza, but major cities like Ashkelon and Ashdod as well as Negev villages.

House demolitions include those along the Philadelphi route,

According to Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon, at least nine of the 20 dead are fugitives who resisted arrest, while the rest were either armed or in a combat zone, which was given a full day to be evacuated when the Israeli Army announced it's intention to conduct a specific operation in a specific location - in an effort to encourage innocents to evacuate in the event of terrorist resistance to the IDF cutting off its weapons source. The situation that killed the children on the rooftop is being investigated by an IDF committee.

Because Rafiach has become the gateway of terrorism through which rockets, RPGs, and other weapons are smuggled in, several Palestinian homes in Rafah have been demolished in ongoing operations, both Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz and Ya'alon said the IDF has no policy of systematic demolitions. "If they want to prevent houses from being demolished," said Ya'alon, "they must stop the arms smuggling."

Only those houses where tunnels are concealed or terrorists launch attacks will be destroyed, he said.

We see the PA has once again begun with unfounded massacre accusations. "The Palestinian leadership calls on all the world's countries – the US, the Quartet, the Arab brothers, the European Union, and the UN Security Council – to stop this big brutal massacre decided by the Israeli government," said a statement issued by PA Chairman Yasser Arafat's office.

Naturally, groups like Amnesty International are located in the refugee camps and only see big bulldozers, ignoring the reasons why those bulldozers have come - to uncover the tunnels used to smuggle rockets that have been landing in the middle of Israeli towns on such a daily basis, that a mortar landing on a city road is no longer news.

Source:

Ma'ariv (http://www.maariv.co.il), May 18, 2004

Choosing Terrorist Apologizers Electronic Intifada as a news source is highly dubious, as is choosing the "Beirut Daily Star" and "Palestine News Network"

Keep hiding the fact that it is the terrorists that brought the IDF to Rafiach in the first place.

[ACPlayer]

The logic is right on the money. Not really much to be amazed about.

Now Gamblor -- he/she/it is truly an amazing mass of illogic and contradictions.

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]
No, I believe Alger is a terrorist supporter and I believe he hates the U.S. and wishes it harm based on his long history of anti-American posts.


[/ QUOTE ]
Terrorist supporter? As in you think he wires money to Hezbollah? Has a picture of Abu Nidal on his wall? Or is this just the "anyone who isn't with us is with the terrorists" school of thought?

[ QUOTE ]

In a recent post he called someone that would sabatoge a U.S. military mission a hero and in another recent post he called a U.S. soldier that died in the line of duty a idiot who deserves to be slapped.


[/ QUOTE ]

In the first case, he was referring to someone who would refuse to initiate a thermonuclear war. You are making it sound like he would fail to intercept a missile aimed at the US.

In regards to the Pat Tilman story, while I feel that perhaps Gonzalez and Alger were harsh in their words, but anyone who is voluntarily joining the military to "fight for freedom" has to know that maybe "fighting for freedom" wouldn't be necessary if US aid to certain regimes hadn't taken away that freedom in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]

BTW - your argument is a weak one and can just as easily be turned. "So, you think that everyone who criticizes the war is being patriotic? Or,is that just what Michael Moore told you?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know too much about Michael Moore. I used to listen to a Pacifica station, and they had some lefty wackos on there. For the most part, the lefty far out types seem like ex-hippies who want peace, a clean environment, and more aid for the poor and suffering throughout the world. To me, the righty wackos are far more malignant- they are obsessed with war, censorship, and the destruction of the Us's left wing.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
"In a recent post he called someone that would sabatoge a U.S. military mission a hero...."

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't know what you're talking about. The "military mission" of a fleet ballistic missile submarine is to act as a deterrent, not to blow up the world. In the event of an actual launch order, that mission will either have failed or been violated. Whatever the cause, there is never any "military" basis for nuking dozens of cities or, more likely, bouncing the rubble in a chain reaction of a system gone mad.

In any event, the hypothetical I posited consisted of a choice between preventing the incineration of millions of civilians and following orders for their own sake. Your position on this sheds a lot of light into how seriously we should take your condemnations of terrorism.

[nicky g]

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/steve_bell/2004/05/19/bell512.jpg

[Gamblor]

The "military mission" of a fleet ballistic missile submarine is to act as a deterrent, not to blow up the world.

Just as Israeli nuclear weapons act as a deterrent to Arab states' aggression, just as house demolitions in the West Bank act as a deterrent to Arab terrorism (with the possible exception of the demolitions in Rafiach yesterday, which a) opened up the Philadelphi route border to IDF patrol and b) uncovered smuggling tunnels).

Oh, wait only Jews aren't allowed to defend themselves.

Your position on this sheds a lot of light into how seriously we should take your condemnations of terrorism.

[Gamblor]

It has come to light that Palestinian gunmen have been firing at Israeli troops from rooftops - it is possible that the children were mistaken for gunmen, as a jittery soldier might have fired prematurely.

The IDF has been ordered not to fire upon armed activists. An initial examination of the incidentrevealed that an IDF gunship identified armed Palestinians in the march approaching the Tel Sultan neighborhood. At some point, the gunship fired one missile towards an open space. Meanwhile, tanks fired shells at open areas to deter the armed activists, some of which were reportedly carrying RPG rocket launchers.

A military source told Maariv Online that a tank fired towards an abandoned structure and speculated that this could have activated explosive devices hidden in the area by Palestinians.

Soldiers are moving from house to house and calling on all terrorists to turn themselves in - not firing at will as Alger has claimed.

In direct violation of every agreement Israeli authorities have signed with the PA, Palestinians are transporting rockets and weapons via Rafiach into Gaza.

[Gamblor]

"fighting for freedom" wouldn't be necessary if US aid to certain regimes hadn't taken away that freedom in the first place.

You're 100% right.

But if you make a mistake, you correct it, right?

[Gamblor]

This coming from someone who claims that the Israelis turned religion into the defining characteristic of this war, after Jews have been exiled, pushed around, beaten, forcibly converted, and murdered, for two thousand years, all for the crime of being Jewish, at the hands of the English, the Germans, the Spanish, the Polish, the Russians, and the Arabs.

But it's Israel that turned religion into an issue.

[nicky g]

Yeah demolishing an innocent person's house is a magnificent deterrent to terrorism. "Hey, we blew your house up. Don't go joining any "terrorists" now!"

[nicky g]

"Oh, wait only Jews aren't allowed to defend themselves."

Noone is allowed to "defend themselves" by blowing up hundreds of civilian homes in the course of an illegal occupation.

[nicky g]

"House demolitions include those along the Philadelphi route"

The IDF has no business destroying hundreds of Palestinian homes to police the border between the Gaza strip and Egypt, especially if it plans to "withdraw" from the area. If it is concerned about attacks from the Gaza strip, then let it police its own borders with the Gaza Strip; otherwise, let it give proper legal rights to the people it is policing.

"Only those houses where tunnels are concealed or terrorists launch attacks will be destroyed, he said."

And yet until the international outcry, the IDF was saying it intended to destroy entire blocks and neighbourhoods of up to 1000 houses. Either they're lying now, or the international condemnation you think is so unfair has achieved some good.

I notice you are quite happy to publicise human rights based criticism when it comes to your own agenda of attacking Arabs and Islam. Yet when the organisations who research these violations and bring them to light (the recent increase in the number of stories on Darfur, for example, came more or less entirely on the back of publication of a Human Rights Watch report on the situation; HRW was also the most vocal and persistent investigator into the Anfal campaigns) also condemn Israel's actions, in Gaza for example, they become just the usual bunch of whining anti-Israel organisations who know nothing about security or terrorism prevention. Tell me, why should we pay any attention to your criticisms of Arab and Muslim human rights violations when you airily dismiss all such criticisms of Israel?

[Gamblor]

Consider this possibility:

The Palestinians are rational human beings, not savage impulsive reactionaries as you believe.

I tell them I will knock their house down, thus putting their family out on the street and incurring a whole lot of expense for a family that likely doesn't have much money, if they choose to murder an Israeli.

Do you believe that Palestinian will go ahead and murder an Israeli?

Only a total racist would believe the Palestinians are incapable of rational thought and would automatically sign up for a murder team at the risk of the family house being destroyed.

Unless, of course, they have been brainwashed into believing that they will be heros for their murder, and in the next world they will be in paradise.

[nicky g]

If you violently oppress people, they will violently fight you. Whether it takes a legitimate (fighting Israeli incursions) or illegitimate (attacking civilian targets) form, they will resist. And they are right to do so.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
I tell them I will knock their house down, thus putting their family out on the street and incurring a whole lot of expense for a family that likely doesn't have much money, if they choose to murder an Israeli.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be honest with you, if somebody knocked on my door and told me that, I would kick the sh*t out of them. I wouldn't murder them, but they would regret having made such a threat.

[Gamblor]

Tell me, why should we pay any attention to your criticisms of Arab and Muslim human rights violations when you airily dismiss all such criticisms of Israel?

I don't airily dismiss them - I claim that those criticisms are based on misleading information on the part of Palestinian government and a misunderstanding of the situation the IDF faces - that is, the IDF is in combat with a belligerent foe, one that fights readily, as PA-TV proves.

Arab belligerence to Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East began long before Israel existed.

That is, Arab violations of human rights attack those who are not belligerent - i.e. the Jews of the Middle East in the early 20th century, the Kurds of Iraq, because it is the Arab political view that Arabs have the exclusive right to self-determination in the Middle East.

Is it shocking, really, that any national group that demands self-determination in the Middle East is currently (or in the recent past) at war with the Arabs?

Persian Iranians vs. Iraqi Arabs
Kurds vs. Iraqi Arabs
Jews vs. a melange of Arab states.
...And the quagmire in Sudan I posted a couple days ago.

[nicky g]

"I tell them I will knock their house down, thus putting their family out on the street and incurring a whole lot of expense for a family that likely doesn't have much money, if they choose to murder an Israeli.

Do you believe that Palestinian will go ahead and murder an Israeli?"

That is not and has never been the case. Demolishing suicide bombers homes poses that question to the suicide bomber, who will be dead in any case and obviously has a warped value system that is not going to be easily put off by the thought of his family's home being demolished (he's already willing to kill himslef). The family theselves have no say in the matter, and the demolitions are the most blatant expaple of illegal collective punishment one could think of.

In the case of Gaza, the people in those homes aren;t being offered that choice either. Their homes are being demolished because some near by may or may not have tinnels, coming beneath them, because militants may or may not occupy the house at some point, because the IDF wants to make its illegitimate control of the Gaza Egypt border an easier tassk, and mostly, because they are being punished for the deaths of 13 IDF soldiers last week. The people in those bouses aren't being offered a choice; their houses are being demolished regardless.

[Gamblor]

Then you're the same as they are.

[nicky g]

Hear hear.

[Gamblor]

If you violently oppress people, they will violently fight you. Whether it takes a legitimate (fighting Israeli incursions) or illegitimate (attacking civilian targets) form, they will resist. And they are right to do so.

I have shown repeatedly that the "oppression" is the result of continued terrorist assault that began long before the 1967 war.

You don't get it. The terrorists win either way, and that's why Arafat started the campaign so long ago.

If they kill Israelis and Israel doesn't react, they force Israel to concede its right to self defence.

If Israel reacts, they send the IDF in to root out terrorists/invading soldiers (67), the world calls it "occupation" and "oppression" and the terrorists have recruiting power.

That's why terrorism works, and why it has been a staple of Palestinian nationalism since before 1948.

Which Came First, Terrorism or Occupation? (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+before+2000/Which+Came+First-+Terrorism+or+Occupation+-+Major.htm)

Major Terror Attacks Against Israeli Embassies and Representatives Abroad (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+before+2000/Major%20Terror%20Attacks%20against%20Israeli%20Emb assies%20and)

[nicky g]

"I don't airily dismiss them - I claim that those criticisms are based on misleading information on the part of Palestinian government and a misunderstanding of the situation the IDF faces - that is, the IDF is in combat with a belligerent foe, one that fights readily, as PA-TV proves."

If such organisationa are too stupid to see past the propaganda coming from both sides in Israel, why should we trust their judgement in Darfur, or anywhere else? After all don't you know that the Darfur rebels have been engaged in anti-Arab proaganda for decades? Furthermore, what do human rights organisations (or Israeli editorial writers) know about putitng down tribal rebellions in Sudan? blah blah blah

If you are going to accept these organisation;s judgements on what's being done by the countries you don't like, you;re going to have to accept them on the country you do. At least if you intend anyone to take you remotely seriously.

[nicky g]

Between 1967 and first intifada there was virtually no terrorism emanating from within the territories agains targets inside Israel. Yet the occupation went on for 20 years. In the year prior to the invasion of Lebanon, one Israeli had been killed by terrorism emanating from Lebanon. But Israel launched a massively bloody invasion nonetheless.
As for violence pre-1948, it happend on both sides (and you defend it coming from one), and if you think any people in the entire world would not resist a wave of immigrants turning up and deciding to build a new state with them as the majority there, you;re crazy.

[Gamblor]

Demolishing suicide bombers homes poses that question to the suicide bomber, who will be dead in any case and obviously has a warped value system that is not going to be easily put off by the thought of his family's home being demolished (he's already willing to kill himslef).

House demolitions are not punishment, they are deterrent, as I just explained. Only results-oriented thinking could believe otherwise.

I thought suicide bombers were "resisting occupation"! If they're resisting occupation then they're rational and not murderous savages. And if they're rational then knowing that their family will be homeless likely will stop them.

What you don't get is that most suicide bombers are social deviants and misfits, such as 14 year old Hussein Abdo who was severely "challenged" and who was convinced the only way he'll ever have sex is to go to heaven, or the Erez crossing bomber who had commited adultery and the bombing was accepted as the only honourable way to kill her.

This is what Palestinians do with those that don't conform to societal norms.

[elwoodblues]

When your deterrent tends to enrage rather than deter, it might be time to rethink how it is working.

[Gamblor]

and if you think any people in the entire world would not resist a wave of immigrants turning up and deciding to build a new state with them as the majority there, you;re crazy.

and you defend it coming from one

And you defend it coming from the other.

The difference is, I defend people that gave me a homeland, while you defend people you have otherwise no connection to.

[nicky g]

"thought suicide bombers were "resisting occupation"! If they're resisting occupation then they're rational and not murderous savages. And if they're rational then knowing that their family will be homeless likely will stop them."

They're resisiting it illegitamately, and they clearly aren't acting rationally. Living in somewhere like Gaza, seeing your friends shot by the IDF, growing up through incursions and firefights and demolitions, will do that to you, and to society as a whole.

It is clearly illegal, and utterly disgusting, to punish innocent people in order to deter guilty people.

[Gamblor]

When your deterrent tends to enrage rather than deter, it might be time to rethink how it is working.

Enrage, perhaps, but now that terrorist organizations are only "hiring" retarded children and adultresses, I'll take their fury over their bombs.

Their fury, I can negotiate with.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference is, I defend people that gave me a homeland, while you defend people you have otherwise no connection to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that kind of suggest who might have the biased opinion on the matter???

Just out of curiousity (if you don't want to answer, no big deal) I noticed that your location lists Toronto. Did you relocate to Canada after living in Israel? How long did you live in Israel?

[nicky g]

"And you defend it coming from the other."

No I don't. Anti-Jewish riots were predictable and but not defensible. Large scale hostility to the project was perfectly reasonable; noone would accept such a ridiculous undertaking in their own land - but violence against civilians is always wrong. The anti-British uprising, and once the state was established, fighting against Israeli soldiers, was defensible. YOu on the other hand have openly defended placing bombs in civilian markets.

[Gamblor]

It is clearly illegal, and utterly disgusting, to punish innocent people in order to deter guilty people.

The PA pays out thousands to each family that has been rendered homeless because of a terrorist.

Israel has offered to relocate all Palestinians whose houses have been demolished as a result of the Rafiach operation.

[nicky g]

"The PA pays out thousands to each family that has been rendered homeless because of a terrorist."

Then what is the point of the policy? Just to make people miserable?

"Israel has offered to relocate all Palestinians whose houses have been demolished as a result of the Rafiach operation. "

Where to, Beirut?

[Gamblor]

noone would accept such a ridiculous undertaking in their own land - but violence against civilians is always wrong. The anti-British uprising, and once the state was established, fighting against Israeli soldiers, was defensible. YOu on the other hand have openly defended placing bombs in civilian markets.

I have defended the Etzel's right to defend Jews against Arab terrorist belligerence, which is not the same as placing a bomb in civilian markets.

That specific thread was a question of what comprises defence - perhaps you have a way of deterring an enemy who believes you are less than human and thus do not believe they are bound by the laws of morality.

What I think is inconsequential, as the Etzel was vilifed by the Yishuv and dismantled when the State was established.

[Gamblor]

Where to, Beirut?

Elsewhere in Gaza.

[nicky g]

"I have defended the Etzel's right to defend Jews against Arab terrorist belligerence, which is not the same as placing a bomb in civilian markets."

You defended the deliberate bombing of a civilian Arab market.

[nicky g]

That's generous of them. Are they going to revive the children they killed too?

[trippin bily]

Utah i am still lmao. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Chris Alger]

The whole world understands quite well the rationale for Israel's decision to make all Palestinian lives miserable, and it is quite logical: resist our dictatorship and we'll shoot your kids, blow up your houses, bulldoze your business, raze your orchards, steal your water and land, choke your daily movements with humiliation "checkpoints," cutoff your food supply, restrict your access to medical care -- even in emergencies -- and place you under mass house arrest enforced by summary execution.

And if anyone objects we'll accuse them of being anti-Semites who don't believe "Jews" have any right to "self-defense."

[trippin bily]

Will the algers of the world, nicky g and the rest of the anti israel crowd please tell me what the israelis should do to stop their woman and children from being killed. Honestly, enough. How can Israel bring peace. What do the palestinians want that will actually stop them from all the killing. Someone please tell me what has to be done to make it stop. Both sides kill each other. How do we make it stop?
Honestly.How do we make it stop?

[nicky g]

NB Despite Feingold's suggestion that the Palestinians may have blown their own march up, the Guardian is reporting that Israeli military sources have told it an Israeli helicopter missile was responsible for the blast.
Israeli Forces Fire on Crowd in Gaza, Killing 10 (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&amp;storyID=5192728) Wed May 19, 2004 09:22 AM ET
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More story pictures


By Cynthia Johnston
RAFAH, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - Israeli forces opened fire on a protest march in a besieged Gaza refugee camp on Wednesday, killing at least 10 Palestinians and raising the death toll to 33 in Israel's bloodiest raid in Gaza in years.

Israeli media said at least 22 bodies, most of them school children, had been counted after the strike in the Rafah camp, which some witnesses said was carried out by helicopter gunships and others blamed on firing by tanks.

People fled screaming, some dragging bloodied comrades and others carrying wounded children in their arms.

"It was horrifying," said Mahmoud Abu Hashem, 35. "There was one person with his intestines coming out. Another had blood covering his face and you couldn't even make out his features."

Medics said 10 people were killed and 50 wounded in Rafah in southern Gaza, which raised the two-day death toll to one of the highest in three and a half years of conflict.

The Palestinian Authority branded the attack a "war crime" and demanded international protection for the Palestinian people.

The Israeli army said it was investigating but that it was too soon to say what had happened. "This is a combat zone filled with explosive devices laid in advance by the Palestinians," said Captain Sharon Feingold, an army spokeswoman.

The bloodshed seemed certain to bring fresh international pressure on Israel to end its assault, which began Tuesday with the stated goal of rooting out militants and uncovering tunnels used to smuggle weapons across the border from Egypt.

The marchers had been surging toward the Tel Sultan neighborhood, the focal point of Israel's sweep into Rafah, when the firing began.

Wednesday morning, Israeli forces killed four Palestinians and demanded the mass surrender of militants in Rafah

Bodies had piled up earlier in a flower freezer converted into a makeshift morgue after overflowing the refugee camp's main hospital, where staff strained to cope with the dead along with dozens of wounded in two days of Israeli military assaults.
After the strike on the protest march, residents flooded the hospital, looking for loved ones. "Did you see my brothers, the three of them who were in the rally?" cried one person. "Where is Ahmed?" a woman shouted.

Soldiers in the Tel Sultan neighborhood, a militant stronghold, called on loudspeakers for armed militants to come out waving white flags of surrender or risk demolition of family homes. Troops searched house to house amid clashes with gunmen.

The raid has raised an international outcry because of Israeli threats to flatten hundreds of Rafah homes to widen an army-controlled security corridor along the border with Egypt.

Palestinian witnesses said Israeli forces were summoning all male residents over 16 to come out and assemble in a local school. The army said it was after militants, not all males.

Some residents said they had heard of neighbors being shot at by troops after emerging from their houses. The army said some militants were firing wildly from rooftops while other men surrendered. Neither of these reports could be confirmed.

Amid the bloodshed, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon worked to revive his Gaza withdrawal plan, which aides said may be presented for cabinet approval as early as next week.

Violence has worsened in Gaza since Sharon proposed evacuating troops and Jewish settlers in a plan backed by most Israelis and the United States, but rejected by his right-wing Likud party in a referendum earlier this month.

Militant groups want to claim as a victory any pullout by Israel from territories it captured in the 1967 Middle East war, while the army is determined to smash them first.

President Bush called the Gaza bloodshed "troubling" but, addressing Jewish-Americans in a tight election campaign, told the powerful pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC that Israel "has every right to defend itself from terror."

[nicky g]

For people who like their solutions simplistic: stop killing Palestinians.

[elwoodblues]

I'll make it a little more complex.

Israel: Stop killing Palestinians.
Palestinians: Stop killing Israelis.


Unfortunately, it's rarely that easy especially when both sides keep falling back to "he started it."

[trippin bily]

elwood an honest answer. nicky g. could learn from you.
O.K. lets say we are world leaders what do we do to make it stop with the exception of pointing out that both sides kill each other? I have read and participated in all the bs from both sides. Lets find a solution and stop accusing each side of doing what the other side is doing as well. How do we fix it?

[nicky g]

You asked what Israel should do, not what Palestinians should do. Militant groups should of course stop targetting Israeli civilians. At the end of the day though it is Israel occupying Palestine and not the other way around.

As for what world leadders should do: the only people who have any real influence over ISrael are the US government. It should make it clear to Israel that there will be serious consequences if it carries on with its brutal policies rather than simply expressing "concern" and carrying on supporting the country financially, militarily and diplomatically to the hilt. It should act as an honest broker and refrain from prejudicing negotitations. It should not wilfully insult the Palestinians by calling Sharon "a man of peace." In short it should press both sides fto return to serious negotiations and stop supporting Israel when it imposes preconditions, refuses to compromise and repeatedly undermines peace initiatives with incursions, settlement expansions, assassinations and land grabs.

[Gamblor]

Just out of curiousity (if you don't want to answer, no big deal) I noticed that your location lists Toronto. Did you relocate to Canada after living in Israel? How long did you live in Israel?

My family moved here when I was young, I moved back to finish high school and do the first year of my Tzava service, where I made Turash (basically private first class), then I left to come back here, as I had no intention of being a Single Soldier (a soldier without local parents, basically an orphan, the military takes special care for you).

If and when I go back I have to finish my service - the length depends on whether or not I'm married/have kids/have work, etc.

I'll be in the miluim (kinda like reserves) until I'm 45-50, or whenever a doctor says I'm done.

Of course I have a biased opinion. But more importantly, I know that ultimately I want to live in peace with the Arabs, and as a registered voter I have the right to choose whatever government I think will closely provide that.

But I also don't want to live like Jews of Europe, who fear attacks from anti-semitic groups, or in Arab countries like my Iraqi Mom, whose family fled the Arab rioters when she was a baby.

[jdl22]

Wow I was certainly not dissapointed by the amazing logical mind of Gamblor. What I thought I would "add" to this discussion is using Gamblor's logic and applying his arguments to the Palestinians and see what he has to say about it:

[ QUOTE ]
Consider this possibility:

The Palestinians are rational human beings, not savage impulsive reactionaries as you believe.

I tell them I will knock their house down, thus putting their family out on the street and incurring a whole lot of expense for a family that likely doesn't have much money, if they choose to murder an Israeli.

Do you believe that Palestinian will go ahead and murder an Israeli?

Only a total racist would believe the Palestinians are incapable of rational thought and would automatically sign up for a murder team at the risk of the family house being destroyed.

Unless, of course, they have been brainwashed into believing that they will be heros for their murder, and in the next world they will be in paradise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Consider this possibility: The Israelis are rational human beings not savage reactionaries as some here believe.

I tell them I will send waves of suicide bombers into their restaurants shopping malls and busses, thus killing many of their men women and children and making them feel like they could be killed any time they are out. Given that they don't like their people to die and want them to feel safe that is quite an expense for the Israeli government

Do you think that they will still continue to attack palestinians and destroy homes of innocent Palestinians?

Only a total anti-semite would believe that these jews are not capable of this kind of rational thought and would continue to kill innocent palestinians and destry their homes at the risk of continuing suicide attacks.

Unless of course they have been brainwashed into believing they are heros because they are "on the real front lines of the War on Terror."

[ QUOTE ]

House demolitions are not punishment, they are deterrent, as I just explained. Only results-oriented thinking could believe otherwise.

I thought suicide bombers were "resisting occupation"! If they're resisting occupation then they're rational and not murderous savages. And if they're rational then knowing that their family will be homeless likely will stop them.



[/ QUOTE ]

Suicide bombings are not punishment they are a deterrent, as I just explained. Only results oriented thinking could believe otherwise.

I thought that Israelis were fighting terrorism! If they're fighting terrorism then they're rational and not murderous, destructive savages. And if they're rational then knowing that their family members could die while riding the bus or going to a cafe will stop them.

/end satire

I don't actually believe the arguments I was pushing forward there. What I find most scary about Gamblor and his views is that the problems continue because both sides feel the same way he does. As long as the Israelis and their supporters ignore their abuses and the Arabs ignore the Palestinian abuses the situation cannot improve. Repeatedly Gamblor puts forth a viewpoint making it quite clear that he only cares about the abuses on the other side and is not willing to acknowledge that the Israli government is committing them as well.

As I said in another thread repeatedly starting threads where arabs do terrible things does not make it ok for Israelis to do terrible things as well. If you really believe that the Israeli soceity and government is superior then why don't you call on the government to act in a superior, civilised manner. Paraphrasing a congressman from the prisoner abuse hearings if you're going to be the good guys you have to act like the good guys.

[Gamblor]

Violence has worsened in Gaza since Sharon proposed evacuating troops and Jewish settlers in a plan backed by most Israelis and the United States, but rejected by his right-wing Likud party in a referendum earlier this month.

Connecting these two events is ludicrous. I noticed no mention of Tali Hatuel and her daughters, or the rocketes fired at the Israeli APCs, which sparked this whole operation.

President Bush called the Gaza bloodshed "troubling" but, addressing Jewish-Americans in a tight election campaign, told the powerful pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC that Israel "has every right to defend itself from terror."

Wow, no bias in this article

No mention that many of the marchers were holding Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers.

Why are schoolchildren marching in a combat zone, where militants were firing wildly from rooftops while other men surrendered.
???

[Gamblor]

Do you think that they will still continue to attack palestinians and destroy homes of innocent Palestinians?


Only a total anti-semite would believe that these soldiers are deliberately attacking palestinians and destroying the homes of innocent palestinians for the sake of wanton murder and destruction, and not as yet another of the hundreds of measures they have tried to protect the civilians of the nation from the terrorist threat.

Unless of course they have been brainwashed into believing they are heros because they are "on the real front lines of the War on Terror."

Who, may I ask, is doing the brainwashing in a democratic nation with freedom of religion, press, and information?

[nicky g]

"Connecting these two events is ludicrous."

Of course it isn't. Ever since Sharon announced hisplans he has engaged in a series of violent actions such as assassinations, incursions and demolitions - supposedly partly to facilitate the withdrawal, partly to make himself look tough and sell it to the hard right.

"No mention that many of the marchers were holding Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers."

Any evidence of this? Were they firing them?

W"hy are schoolchildren marching in a combat zone, where militants were firing wildly from rooftops while other men surrendered? "


They were marching towards the demolition zone, not in it. The real question isn't why Gaza residents were peacefully protesting an invasion in their own town but what invading foreign forces were doing in that town; not why they were near a war zone but why the IDF created the war zone by invading.

[superleeds]

Educate. Both sides.

[Gamblor]

Vis-a-vis the Arab/Israeli conflict?

Arabs:

1) PA: return of all of the descendants of the Arabs that left in 1948 to what is now Israel, PA-sovereignty over Jerusalem, and an end to Jewish villages in the West Bank.

2) Hamas/other Islamists: an Islamic theocracy in all of Israel and the West Bank and Gaza

3) Mainstream Palestinians, including secular terrorist organizations: Opinion varies, obviously, but near unanimous opinion in major cities, where TV (and thus, Arafat) has greater influence, is end to Jews in West Bank, reparations for their refugee status, and free passage into Israel to conduct business/gain employment. Smaller villages aren't politically oriented, and rarely accept terrorists until they force their way in. Most smaller villages are secular and just want to maintain economic ties with similar Jewish Israeli villages, couldn't care less otherwise.

4) Most Arab states: End of Israel, Arab sovereignty over Israeli territory. Return of Palestinians to Israel, where they will become majority, vote in Arab governments, join League of Arab States, and form another de-facto Arab state in the Middle East.

Israelis:

1) Peaceniks (i.e. Gush Shalom, etc.): hand over anything that'll make the hurting stop; land, money, whatever. Just give up.

2) Labour: Protect the Jewish right to a Jewish homeland, free of pogroms and Holocausts. If giving up the settlements will do that, then fine. Negotiations with anyone can succeed, but must maintain Jewish homeland.

3) Likud: We need Israeli military presence in West Bank to protect major Israeli cities, in close proximity (within 10 mi. in some places) to Arab cities, from attack. Security for Jews, which includes access to water resources (which had been cut off by Syria, via the Golan). Jews must learn to protect themselves rather than rely on international community to fail them again. Conflicts are natural, only by asserting one's self can one gain; the goal is a fair and equitable balance of power between Arabs and Jews.

4) Settlers: To live in the cities they believe God gave them, but more importantly, were forced to abandon in 1948 when Arab rioters made Jewish life impossible, until they returned to rebuild Jewish villages (settlements) in 1967.

[Gamblor]

not why they were near a war zone but why the IDF created the war zone by invading.

This is a joke, right?

TO CLEAR OUT TERRORIST WEAPONS SMUGGLING TUNNELS

[nicky g]

"for Jews, which includes access to water resources "

Which includes theft of Palestinian water resources, you mean.

"Settlers: To live in the cities they believe God gave them, but more importantly, were forced to abandon in 1948 when Arab rioters made Jewish life impossible, until they returned to rebuild Jewish villages (settlements) in 1967. "

Yeah the Russian and American Jews in Hebron really have a claim to it. I sympthise with Jews having fled/been expelled from such areas and I wouuld like to see Jews being able to live peacefully there as apart of a final settlement (one reason why I lean towards a binational state) but rabid racist lunatics like the community that spawned Baruch Goldstein should not be allowed to colonise Palestinian land and resources far disproportionate to their numbers.
Of course many settlements/settlers have nothing to do with religion, but they still rob local Palestinians of a huge amount of land and resources.

[Gamblor]

Eliminate anti-semitism from the Arab world, and show them that their leaders are blinding them to the truth:

That Jews are not descendent from monkeys and donkeys.
That their leaders make billions in oil money/UN relief money, while they starve and are told it is Israel's/America's fault.
That Jews have a right to have a Jewish State like Israel, just as Arabs have the right to have an Arab state like Iraq, Jordan, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Oman, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, or Egypt.

There's my solution.

[Gamblor]

It should not wilfully insult the Palestinians by calling Sharon "a man of peace."

Who have you seen with a 24 hour grimace on his face on television in the last 3 years?

Who do you see smiling and cheering on throngs of supporters despite the fact that he knows hundreds of them may die?

[nicky g]

Crap. To clear a buffer zone to help their soldiers retain their illegitimate control of the Gaza - Egypt border, imprisoning the Gazans, after the withdrawal.

How many tunnels are there, that they need to make 11,000 people homeless? Those Palestinians must be real nifty diggers. Why do you need to destroy all the houses on a block to destroy kilometre long tunnels?

[Gamblor]

All these houses are destroyed because each house is two rooms, and they're 3 inches apart.

11,000 homeless is the number since 2000, not in this operation, you liar.

[Gamblor]

one reason why I lean towards a binational state

Like Lebanon?

Or maybe Yugoslavia?

[nicky g]

"11,000 homeless is the number since 2000, not in this operation, you liar. "

Get [censored]. Where did I say it was in this operation? 11,000 people over three years is a ridiculous number to make homeless.

[nicky g]

Or Belgium? Or Canada? Or Lebanon before it was destabilised by the influx of tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees expelled from Israel?

[Gamblor]

Or Canada?

Yep, with weekly demands by the Parti Quebecois to separate from the rest of Canada, what a success!

[nicky g]

Just a little, little bit more successful than Israel. With weekly mass killings, what a success!

[Gamblor]

With weekly mass killings, what a success!

Look at that, you've rehashed the "massacre" libel that was so popular after Jenin.

What's next? Jews drink the blood of Muslims to make Passover Matzah? How unoriginal.

[ACPlayer]

Bloody heck, even you cant tell the difference between an argument against Israel and an argument against Jews.

Israel is a "secular" state founded for religious purposes. It is the central and only cause of all the violence in the middle east.

Now your normal reaction to this statement -- so what did the Jews do to you? Why dont you like the Jew?

Who makes it a religious argument?

You truly are an imbecile. If the IDF is populated by the likes of you, no wonder they are happy to kill young boys and girls.

[MMMMMM]

ACPlayer: "Israel is a "secular" state founded for religious purposes. It is the central and only cause of all the violence in the middle east."

Uh...right. Israel is the reason why Iraq invaded Iran and Kuwait, and if it weren't for Israel, all the Arab states would get along with each other just great, just like they always have.

[ACPlayer]

OK, here is the correction:

It is the central and principle cause for all the current terrorism in the Middle East, until the idiots in the Bush administration invaded the Middle East.

[Kenrick]

[ QUOTE ]

BTW - your argument is a weak one and can just as easily be turned. "So, you think that everyone who criticizes the war is being patriotic? Or,is that just what Michael Moore told you?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know too much about Michael Moore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Michael Moore is a leftist or a liberal or anything. I think he's simply a moron who has no idea what he is talking about and yells about hot-button topics in order to get attention. Oh yeah, he's also a bs artist and a liar.

[nicky g]

"Look at that, you've rehashed the "massacre" libel that was so popular after Jenin.

What's next? Jews drink the blood of Muslims to make Passover Matzah? How unoriginal. "

You're crazy. I was referring to people being killed on both sides. People are dying in great numbers every week in Israel and Palestine. That has nothing to do with any blood libel. I 50 years of almost endless conflict isn;t exactly a measure of success compared to peaceful disagreements in Canada.

I thought you'd given up on such shitty smears but evidently you've run out of anything remotely reasonable to say.

[Gamblor]

You're crazy. I was referring to people being killed on both sides. People are dying in great numbers every week in Israel and Palestine. That has nothing to do with any blood libel. I 50 years of almost endless conflict isn;t exactly a measure of success compared to peaceful disagreements in Canada.

FLQ Crisis - 1970 (http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/octobercrisis/)

Look at that: one terrorist incident and Canada invokes the War Measures act, basically saying that the government has near-total power.

Daily terrorist attacks in Israel and it's still letting people roam free, even Israeli Arabs who at times have supported terrorist actions against Israelis.

[nicky g]

Mmm. How many houses did they bulldoze? How many children did they shoot?

[Gamblor]

It is the central and principle cause for all the current terrorism in the Middle East, until the idiots in the Bush administration invaded the Middle East.

Israel is by definition and mandate a Jewish State. While the state is secular, the foundation for its rule of law is based in Jewish law, the vast majority of its citizens are Jewish (whether observant or not observant) and the Delaration of Independence itself calls Israel a Jewish State.

While there is freedom of religion, it is well established fact that Israel and Jews are nearly synonymous.

One of the common anti-semitic canards is that Jews, as a group, weild more power than they do (such as the ability to throw a whole continent into disarray).

Here's a thought:

Blame the terrorists.

[Gamblor]

I'm sure that if the FLQ terrorist campaign had lasted 50 years, there'd be just as many dead Quebecois.

But the Arab terrorists are another entity entirely. They are not Irish, they are not Basque, they are not Columbian.

Arab politics views the whole Middle East as Arab land, and any non-Arab presence must be destroyed.

You just don't get it, and it's likely you never will.

[nicky g]

"I'm sure that if the FLQ terrorist campaign had lasted 50 years, there'd be just as many dead Quebecois"

I'm sure if non-Quebecois Canadians had have exiled half of them, then placed the rest of them under a thirty year legal limbo of stateless and rightless military occupation while bulldozing their houses, uprooting their farms, confiscating their land and resources, collectively punishing them, and beating, torturing and shooting them when they dared to protest any of this, it would have.

My point was that there are many binational (or even multinational) states that can be considered successes. Some problems notwithstanding, Canada, as one of the richest countries with the highest standas of living in the world can clearly be considered one.

"You just don't get it, and it's likely you never will. "

Obviously, the feeling is mutual. ALthough I suspect even if you did get it, out of sectarian self interest you still wouldn;'t care.

[Gamblor]

ALthough I suspect even if you did get it, out of sectarian self interest you still wouldn;'t care.

Zionism is not the exclusive right of Jews to Israel; it is simply the RIGHT of Jews to a homeland.

I said from day one that if there was never another anti-Jewish word or anti-Zionist word published in another newspaper on earth, if no Jew was ever killed simply because he was Jewish, and no more WASPs at dinner parties obnoxiously whispered "of course" under their breath the next time a media mogul or politician or miser or actor or lawyer or criminal happens to be Jewish, I'll give up on the Zionist dream.

But that's not the way the world works, and it never has been.

So yeah, I have self-interest.

If I am not for me, then who will be?
-Hillel

[ACPlayer]

So, if I understand correctly, the creation of the State of Israel injected religion as an issue into the middle east?

What should I blame the terrorists for? Trying to go back home? Tying to fight the cruel occupiers?

I despise their tactics, but yes I "blame" the Palestinians for wanting a homeland that was seized by religious bigots intent on building a "secular" theocratic state.