Was it a correct play ? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Raven

05-18-2004, 06:03 PM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players) 
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG 3-bets $2.75 (All-In), UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (17.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players, 1 all-in) 
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (17.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players, 1 all-in) 
SB bets, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: 22.75 BB
Main Pot: 15.25 BB, between SB, UTG and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (15.25 BB).
Pot 2: 7.50 BB, between SB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (7.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows Jc Jh (three of a kind, jacks).
UTG shows Ad Qs (two pair, aces and queens).
Hero shows Ts 9s (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 22.75 BB.

Lost Wages

05-18-2004, 06:10 PM

Preflop, fold T9s to a raise except maybe on the button with a boatload of limpers.

Flop, I would like it a lot better if all of your outs were to the nuts.

Turn, bet for value.

Lost Wages

LetsRock

05-18-2004, 06:32 PM

IMO, the preflop call was incorrect - not enough callers in front of you.

IMO, the flop was overplayed. You're not drawing to the nuts. It's one thing to value bet a draw but raise and re-raise? Seems a little extreme to me.

You picked up the non-nut flush draw on the turn and now you check-through? You just doubled your outs. A free card is fine and good, but this doesn't make sense to me following your maniacal flop play.

Well you hit and it was good. I think you played it poorly and got lucky. (I bet SB was lickin' his chops until the river and he didn't even charge you for the river, but I'm guessing you cheated him out of a c/r!)

ddubois

05-18-2004, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn, bet for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be for value if he gets check-raised by SB and forces everyone else to coldcall two and likely fold.

J.R.

05-18-2004, 06:59 PM

And that check-raise should be obvious based on the action the sb has taken at every prior opportunity- checking or calling?

It is a bet for value if you expect to win more than your fair share, even if in fact you don't always win. I bet for value all the time on the river and get called by better hands, but that does not mean my bet was not "for value". When betting for value you want to get called, because you expect your opponent's have inferior hands. The end result does not change the intent of the action.

ddubois

05-18-2004, 07:41 PM

And that check-raise should be obvious based on the action the sb has taken at every prior opportunity- checking or calling?

Mea culpa, you're right. I was doing some subconscious hind-sight action there. A check-raise from the SB seems unlikely.

It is a bet for value if you expect to win more than your fair share

"Fair share" is a fuzzy term. To be more specific, it's a bet for value if the ratio of (your bet : money put into the pot as a result of your bet) is greater than the probability of you winning the hand.

The end result does not change the intent of the action.
Mayhbe we're arguing semantics, but in my mind it does. If you are 1:3 to win the pot, and you attempt a bet into a field of 6 resulting in 4 of them folding, then I don't consider that bet to have gotten the proper value.

Louie Landale

05-19-2004, 01:16 PM

T9s for a double bet pretty marginal. On the flop you've got a weak draw and can easily lose this pot half the time you DO make it (someone as a set or 2 pair and fills; someone has back-door clubs or hearts, someone has AT, you snag an K then get counterfeited or split, yaddy yaddy), you you need 2:1 to make the hand but 3:1 to win the pot. You got 5:1 so that's real good plus you have position and take a free turn card which you did. Good enough cap against this many folks; not so good against less. Capping with the draw also helps on future hands.

On the turn you got more outs but have half as many chances to hit. You cannot bluff the all in and a T or 9 is NOT going to win. I count 15 outs figuring you'll win about 80% of the time resulting in the equivalent of 12 outs. That's 34:12 or less than 3:1 to win. There are 4 opponents. At best they will all call and you'll win 25% of one bet. At worst the SB is slow playing a set and will raise and you'll lose over one bet. Very reasonable check; but I would have bet if the likely big pair was NOT all in (potentially geting 5:1).

Good river raise.

Well played; except for the very marginal PF call. But your implied odds sure looks sweet...

- Louie