AJs in the SB

[RoodyPooh]

10/20 live HE

folded around to LAG on the CO who raises. I 3-bet from the SB with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Solid BB caps, LAG calls, I call.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, BB bets, LAG calls I call

Turn: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, BB checks, LAG bets, I c/r, BB now 3-bets, LAG calls your action...

[DcifrThs]

you're done. fold.

you didn't bet or c-r and gave the BB a chance to hit his KK...which it looks like he did. or he has AK or AA both of which you're dead to...get out. and for future reference...it looks like the solid guy in the BB had a big pair...if it was heads up it may make sense to check call the flop...but you have another guy in there. so c-r the flop or bet out the flop but don't just check call.

-Barron

[RoodyPooh]

I fold the turn and LAG calls BB down who shows AKs and LAG mucks...

I thought I played the hand well. Should I have played it differently? What's wrong with check/calling this hand on the flop? I'm not trying to defend my play, but seeking advice from better players to see how they would've played it and learn from mistakes. I'd like to get responses from several posters on the hand if possible. I think the turn is a clear fold but a little confused on other streets.

[DcifrThs]

against typical players who cap from the bb in that situation you are looking at a very small # of hands. the earlier you can get out against a bigger hand the cheaper it is. since you check called the flop you didn't know where you were at. if you bet and were raised instead of called you can fold. similarly, if you checkraised and are 3bet you can fold...BOTH of those are cheaper than the 2.5 bb's you spent to find out. the former costs 1 small bet to bet out and fold to a raise, and the latter costs 2 small bets to fold to a 3bet from your c-r.

-Barron

[Schmed]

I haven't read the results yet.

preflop I like the 3 bet.

I prefer to C/R the flop rather than the turn. Your hand isn't all that great and the information you gain may be worth any half of a bet you don't gain on the turn.

After he 3 bet my C/R I call and check call the river.

[risen]

I really don't like that 3 bet preflop from the SB, what are you trying to accomplish with that? I prefer a limp with a check raise on the flop. From the Blinds in small fields I'm raising less often with Big Aces, to let over aggressive types make moves with suboptimal hands on later streets.

[Schmed]

I guess you're right about the fold on the turn. One thing I would be thinking is that there is some chance the BB would be playing something like A8s there. Thinking the CO was stealing, you were isolating him with less than a top hand because you put him on a steal, a solid player may call 2 with something marginal like A8s. That read would have gotten me to call this down after I c/rd the turn. Too much money in there to fold and catch my J on the river...which in this case would have been the worst case scenario.

Like you I would have found out enough info on the flop to make my turn play a little easier.

[RoodyPooh]

[ QUOTE ]
against typical players who cap from the bb in that situation you are looking at a very small # of hands. the earlier you can get out against a bigger hand the cheaper it is. since you check called the flop you didn't know where you were at. if you bet and were raised instead of called you can fold. similarly, if you checkraised and are 3bet you can fold...BOTH of those are cheaper than the 2.5 bb's you spent to find out. the former costs 1 small bet to bet out and fold to a raise, and the latter costs 2 small bets to fold to a 3bet from your c-r.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

BB could have a number of hands seeing me 3-bet a LAG stealing the blinds. Betting out just seems horrible. I just wanted to call one bet and see the how the turn card and action came out before I decided what to do. Once BB checked I thought he had an underpair to A or K and thought it was a good spot to C/R once LAG was probably betting a weak ace since checked to.

[DcifrThs]

you're not taking into account that he's there with both you AND the lag in the pot. he's indicated an intense interest in this pot and if he knows you'll 3bet with lets say KJ or A9 or A8s then what will he accomplish my capping with anything near that. he needs better than AJs to cap and play the hand as it was. isn't it possible he was checking the turn to get the lag to bet and he can c-r which is basically exactly what happened....

you need to realize that a CAP here means ALOT...if he JUST CALLED then you could widen the range of hands...but here he's trying to get bets in the pot with the best hand, not call because you can be 3betting a lag with a wide range of hands.

-Barron

[steveyz]

If you are gonna play this, you want the BB out of the hand. You want to take this head up against the LAG so that you'll have to good chance of winning unimproved, probably against a dominated hand.
I believe HPFAP specifically mentions that you should not been calling many steal raises from the SB, either fold or re-raise. You don't want the BB involved.

[RoodyPooh]

[ QUOTE ]
isn't it possible he was checking the turn to get the lag to bet and he can c-r which is basically exactly what happened....

[/ QUOTE ] Yes... definitely possible, but he could also check here not intending to C/R. Earlier you mentioned folding here on the flop which seems really terrible to me. "Check/Raise and fold to a 3-bet on the flop, or bet out and fold to a raise." I'm not trying to criticize at all but both of those plays seem terrible IMO. Ed Miller's post about how raising for information being wrong comes to mind, since the information you get from betting out is crap. You bet he raised. I think check calling or c/r the flop seem reasonable. Folding to a 3-bet after the c/r seems terrible though.

[DcifrThs]

i may sound like an ass here...and i may be wrong...but i thuroughly believe in both of those plays and if an expert comes in and explains why i'm wrong i will gladly take the advice.

Here's why i think both of those plays are correct:

when you 3bet the lag, it means that you have some kind of hand that is better than what the lag has and in order for the bb to reraise cap here he has to have something some degree better than what you've chose to 3bet. AQ would be my MINIMUM capping hand in this spot. and that is the ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM. 99, tt, jj, qq, kk, aa also come to mind but those are all better than aq. AQs, and AKs also come to mind. therefore, as you can see, you are not in the best shape on the flop and are either way ahead or way behind. 99, tt, jj, qq, and kk would either call or fold to a bet by the sb after all that strength and action (much more likely fold) because there are TWO people to act behind him. if the BB THEN raises you KNOW he has at least that minimum hand and can fold b/c he wouldn't raise the underpair b/c the lag is still in the pot. therefore you either win more from him when he calls (unlikely since he'll fold the underpairs unless he likes to marry them and raise the better hands, or maybe slowplay AA which is unlikely given you have one ace, but the cap signifies a significant hand), or you lose the least when he raises and you can fold YOUR MARGINAL HAND. thats right, i said it. AJs in this exact spot is a marginal hand with which you either win a little or lose alot.

the second play of checkraising and folding to a 3bet is slightly worse than the initial bet out fold to a raise because you've invested more money in the pot and have 3 outs if against AQ, AK and are totally dead to AA. you're trying to gain the BB's single bet you wouldn't have gained if he'd fold his kk, qq, jj, tt, 99 to a bet but bet them if you check. once you checkraise and he 3bets you are DONE! D-O-N-E done. there is nothing he can have you can beat here so you fold.

if you still think these plays are terrible please give me concrete evidence as to why they are terrible. i think they save money when behind and make money when ahead. waiting until the turn to c-r you're marginal holding in my mind is terrible. playing the hand the way you did is something i'd never do and if i saw it i'd say it was a pretty bad decision and make a note of it in my head. i'm just giving you what i'd think and feel if i was MP1 in this hand and folded and watched the hand unfold but happen to see your cards as you muck and know all plyers cards (impossible but the birds eye view is what i have here).

other plays that may be alternatives here are 3betting a raise from the bb if the lag calls and then if he calls you can bet out turn and fold to a raise (but cost is same as your play) and folding to a 3 bet from the lag if its two more cold back to you. but do you see how checking and calling on this flop is imo horrible IN A THREE PERSON POT?

please explain your positions further if you still don't agree. thanks
-Barron

[samdash]

This pot is enormous and it is correct to play your top pair medium kicker passively to a show down. Things went weird on the turn when the solid checked. Usually this check would signify an underpair to the ace. However he was slowplaying. I think the checkraise on the turn is a fine play since the solid will most likely drop an underpair for a single bet anyway. It is an easy fold once the solid check-reraises the turn. He lost the same as if he called the whole way (2.5 BB) which is absolutely correct for the size of the pot.

[steveyz]

It's way too weak to betting and folding to a raise with AJs on a flop like this. Note how large the pot is now and that hero has a backdoor nut flush draw.

I probably would have check-raised the flop, then call the 3-bet, and then check-fold the turn.

I know a lot of people who will try to raise a flop like this with a hand like 99/TT/JJ, on the chance they can get a weak ace to fold (or more likely, getting a higher pocket pair less than AA to fold). Remember that due to the preflop action, this pot is quite large and IMHO, it's a fairly large mistake to lay this one down on the flop for a single raise.

[DcifrThs]

These criticisms i can take and understand.

the pot is indeed to big to fold so therefore i like the flop checkraise and 3bet call the most. if the draw comes then you can check call or the jack comes you can check and raise.

or you can bet and 3bet the flop and take it from there. but i think the flop checkraise is good.

thank you for the constructive criticism.
-Barron

[samdash]

He check-called the flop which I agree with in this situation.

[Nightwish]

I haven't read the results yet. I like your preflop play. The flop play is fine too. (To those who are advocating a bet or check-raise for information on the flop: just what kind of information are you hoping to get? You're either way ahead or way behind. Are you actually going to fold?)

When he 3-bets the turn, you're done. He has AK.

[risen]

That's a good point Steve, winning the pot unimproved is one variable i didn't take into consideration.

What I was (have been) thinking in this spot is.

If I've put the CO on a steal raise, The BB has too and the CO is probably aware of that fact, but once I call 1.5 SB cold, it looks stronger than the ISO reraise that the BB is going to put me on when I 3bet.

I can't think of a significant range of hands which the BB in this situation would fold for 2 SB, that he wasn't going to fold for 1 SB anyway.

And finally, If the BB cold calls after me, I have a well disguised best hand set up for check raising a flop that hits me, or maybe any flop.

When the BB raises preflop after I limp, I'm giving him quite a bit more credit than when he caps after I 3 bet. And that too helps me play the hand a bit better when I have the worst position on the board.

[builtiz]

I agree

You must bet out or CR on the flop to see if the raiser has an ace. If he flat calls you prob. have a winner although a good player will let you bet the turn and raise then to put pressure on the CO.

If you get 3 bet on the flop you can safely check fold turn unless BB is a complete maniac.

If you r going to check call the flop you mine as well check call every where else and see if your hand is good.

Use the flop to get cheap info!

[steveyz]

A well disguised hand is a nice thing to have. But in this case, I'd rather have the BB fold. If I were in the BB and the SB had already folded, I'd probably just smooth call for deceptive value.

I'd like to think that there's many hands that BB might have that he would call 1 bet with that he might not call 2 bets with. Hands I can think of include many suited connectors and small pairs, as well as some hands like AT or KJ that are dominated. I guess it depends on your read on the BB. If he'd call 2 cold with just about anything that he'd call 1 with, I guess there's less value to 3-betting here.

[RoodyPooh]

[ QUOTE ]
You must bet out or CR on the flop to see if the raiser has an ace. If he flat calls you prob. have a winner although a good player will let you bet the turn and raise then to put pressure on the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he flat calls my flop bet, my hand is prob. good? I don't think you can assume this. This information doesn't mean anything.

[ QUOTE ]
If you r going to check call the flop you mine as well check call every where else and see if your hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alot has changed on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Use the flop to get cheap info!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is everyone so crazy about getting info. Often, it is unrealiable.

[elysium]

hi roody
fold. there's not really much here to debate. by the way, the only thing that solidly keeps you in on the flop is the back-door. yes, calling the flop without the back-door is o.k. unless the BB wouldn't bet the flop without top pair. you would really need to be fairly sure of this though roody.

i thought i had responded to this post earlier, but i guess not. couldn't find my thread.