known maniac raised me all-in on scary flop

[Che]

$30+3 Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney

Big Blind is t30 (10 handed)

<font color="purple">Known Maniac</font> (t2245)
SB (t1060)
BB (t700)
UTG (t1925)
UTG+1 (t2320)
UTG+2 (t1520)
<font color="purple">Hero </font>(t1505)
MP2 (t700)
MP3 (t1350)
CO (t885)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t30, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls,

MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls,

<font color="CC3333">Known Maniac</font> raises to t250. Maniac overbets the pot about once per orbit. Usually there is a limper or three and he makes it 400 with 80 chips in the pot already (or something like that). This one is semi-suspicious since he only overbet the pot by a few chips, but the guy is clearly superaggressive. I figure he can do this with any pair, AK, maybe less. Also makes big overbets and very loose calls on the flop.

Folded to Hero who calls, others fold.

Flop: (t635) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>

<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t400</font>

<font color="CC3333">Known Maniac raises to t1400</font>

Hero has t855 left. 2290 in pot.

What should hero do?

Results and comments later...

Che

[SossMan]

Will the maniac release to "real" aggression? And I don't mean a measly T400 flop bet into a T635 pot.

I don't really like the way you played it preflop unless you are going to hammer him on the flop. You don't really have enough chips to be going for a flopped set. I would have released preflop or popped him back all in. You are out of position vs. someone who is more than likely going to make you make a pants-sh!tting decision on the flop (unless you flop really hard).
I guess you could make a case for calling preflop, and check folding unless you flop a set or an overpair, but betting T400 into a pot that you are going to hate the very likely all in from him is pretty bad, IMO.

I think there are may be better spots to push your edge against him later. You still have enough chips...I would lean towards folding preflop, with another option of reraising him all in preflop. If you call, you have to hit really hard to continue, don't make a post oak bluff into someone that you will hate what they will do 90% of the time.

[BabyJesus]

What should hero do? Fold preflop.

You have the option of folding or pushing all in. I like f olding a whole lot more. Your hand isn't strong enough to make a stand against this maniac. You said it yourself he's likely to do this with any pair. You only have a medium pair. The blinds are tiny you def don't want to be playing 88 for such a large portion of your stack. I think you should look for a better spot. At best i'm guessing you're going to race him preflop. Usually don't want to race early in the tournament.

[Che]

Thanks to BabyJesus and SossMan for the quick replies.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like the way you played it preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like my preflop play, either. I certainly agree that calling 15% of your stack with a middle pair is generally not good. I had hoped another limper would come along which would have given me the odds I needed to play hit-or-quit with the set, but that didn't happen so I ended up headsup (and out of position) against the maniac.

When the others folded, I planned to check-fold the flop unless I hit a set or something with big drawing potential. I would have preferred the former, but I got the latter.

I figured he could have the following hands:

22-55,77: He's dead for practical purposes so I want him to call. 2/3 pot sounds good since he might call it or bluff me if he has a diamond.
66, overpairs (no diamond): I'm behind but have 11 outs twice.
99, QQ: 9 outs twice, but maniac has lots of redraws when I hit.
Overpairs with a diamond or made flush: I'm crushed.
Overcards with a diamond: He's slightly ahead.
Overcards, no diamond: He's got 4 outs twice (unless he also has a straight draw).

This is a lot to consider in 30 seconds, but I decided that it was close enough that I was willing to play it for all my chips given the 635 dead money in the pot.

If I bet big (or push in), the few hands he will fold are the ones I want him to call so I only bet 400 since an all-in reraise wouldn't bother me (much /images/graemlins/frown.gif).

Results: He showed AKo, no /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, turn and river were blanks, and I took down the huge pot.

He commented that I had made an "amazing" call with 88. I think it would be a ridiculous call against most opponents, but that it was merely a tough/questionable call to make against a maniac.

Agree/disagree? Comments on flop decision?

Che

[fnurt]

I just think you got yourself in a guessing game where you happened to guess right this time. He had AK, he could have just as easily had AQ. He had no diamond, but he just as easily could have had one. Knowing that he was a maniac didn't really help you read the situation since you're behind so many hands that aren't even very special.

I would have folded preflop. You're most likely in a coinflip situation where you have no idea which overcards make his hand, and you only get paid off at 5:1 if you hit a set which isn't good enough.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded preflop. You're most likely in a coinflip situation where you have no idea which overcards make his hand, and you only get paid off at 5:1 if you hit a set which isn't good enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we assume I can get all-in when I flop a set (not a 100% chance of course, but much closer to 100% than normal against this particular opponent), my odds are actually 7.59:1 even if the others fold (as they did). So I would probably fold preflop next time, but I don't think calling was terrible.

[ QUOTE ]
I just think you got yourself in a guessing game where you happened to guess right this time. He had AK, he could have just as easily had AQ. He had no diamond, but he just as easily could have had one. Knowing that he was a maniac didn't really help you read the situation since you're behind so many hands that aren't even very special.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't call because I thought/guessed/hoped he had AKo no /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or a small pair. I called because I thought I was close enough to even money that the pot odds of slightly more than 1.5:1 (from the perspective of my initial flop bet with the assumption that all the chips would probably go in) made playing the hand for all my chips +EV. Of course, I'm out of the tourney 50-60% of the time so the risk may not have justified the play but I think you have to take risks when you have a chance to make a +EV play (this was +13% or so if I'm a 45:55 dog against his range of hands).

Overall, I think my preflop play was slightly -EV while the postflop play was slightly +EV. Final grade: D+.

Thanks for the comments, fnurt. Any other thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Che

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
If we assume I can get all-in when I flop a set (not a 100% chance of course, but much closer to 100% than normal against this particular opponent), my odds are actually 7.59:1 even if the others fold (as they did). So I would probably fold preflop next time, but I don't think calling was terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds that you will flop a set and still lose factor in here as well, but yeah.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't call because I thought/guessed/hoped he had AKo no /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or a small pair. I called because I thought I was close enough to even money that the pot odds of slightly more than 1.5:1 (from the perspective of my initial flop bet with the assumption that all the chips would probably go in) made playing the hand for all my chips +EV. Of course, I'm out of the tourney 50-60% of the time so the risk may not have justified the play but I think you have to take risks when you have a chance to make a +EV play (this was +13% or so if I'm a 45:55 dog against his range of hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with accepting a coin flip where the pot is laying you 1.5:1 odds, but keep in mind that not all the money was going in preflop. The problem with playing a pair against unknown overcards after the flop is that you are mathematically even money, but in reality you will probably pay him off when he hits more often than he will pay you off when he misses, making the situation something less than even money. If you play limit, then you're familiar with the problems involved with playing a pair postflop, never knowing where you're at.

As it turns out, the guy missed and went all-in on the flop anyway; but I think it's likely that he wouldn't have necessarily done this with a lesser hand than AK. Anyway, I'm glad things worked out for the best. Maniacs make the heart race!

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
Maniacs make the heart race!

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't they! As long as the head stays calm, we love them.

But sometimes the desire to bust them overwhelms the head /images/graemlins/crazy.gif, and good-but-not-great hands are overplayed (which is what the skilled maniac wants, of course /images/graemlins/blush.gif).

Thanks,
Che

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall, I think my preflop play was slightly -EV while the postflop play was slightly +EV. Final grade: D+.

Thanks for the comments, fnurt. Any other thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Che


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is about right.

[Jason Strasser]

This is a very, very fishy play preflop Che on your part. You say that you figured people would call behind you, so you could play set or fold, but you can never assume that. This is a fairly large chunk of your stack, and you have a marginal hand. Wait till you find something with more firepower than pocket 8s. Limp, fold.

[ZootMurph]

Now that this has been discussed and we know the outcome... how would you have played this in the maniac's position?

[Che]

I play it the same way he played it IF one of my overcards is a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

With a very loose-very aggressive table image (which I think he was aware of), folding equity is minimal. Not enough outs to chase and many outs are potentially tainted when they hit, so I fold to the flop bet.

Maybe I'm just a loose-passive wimp, though. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I hope others respond. Good question, Zoot.

Che

[AceKQJT]

Hi Che,

I would have to agree with the logic of what most folks are saying here, but....

I HATE to be at a table with a bully. The bully starts getting under my skin, making me more and more upset until I finally lose my cool and do something moronic. Because I recognize this *leak* in my play, I have adjusted in this manner:

BEFORE I get too fed up with the bully, I find a fair (or better) hand and try to isolate him. When you made the call pre-flop, you were thinking "make a big pot...let others in". I, on the other hand, only want to use this hand for future rounds. He acts before you, so you are in a great position to isolate him. Generally, I would re-raise at least to T-750. I want to slow him down some so I can start seeing a few flops. I want to pu HIM on the defensive for a moment. It may be -EV at this particular moment, but I think it sets up more +EV situations in the hands to follow.

Against the guy you've described, I probably wouldn't mind getting all-in with him pre-flop with 8-8.

Well, I've rambled long enough..Long Story Short - I isolate the bully, then go after his stack. Feels good, too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

--Casey