Q8s, what do ya think?

[Brian]

Party 3/6. I am new to the table but it appears to be a typical loose table. I am dealt Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in CO-1. EP, MP, LP all limp, I limp, CO and Button limp, SB completes, BB raises. Everyone calls. 8 to the Flop, 8bb.

Flop: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, BB bets. EP, MP, LP all call and I raise. CO folds, Button and SB cold-call, rest call. 7 to the Turn, 15bb.

Turn: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Everyone checks to LP who folds, and I check. Button bets, SB calls, BB folds, EP and MP call. I raise. Button 3-bets, only EP and I call. 3 to the River, 27bb.

River: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Both check to Button who bets, EP folds, I call. Comments?

-Brian

[LondonBroil]

Preflop: Fine

Flop: Good

Turn: Why check-raise the button with a 3rd nut flush draw? I could see you doing it if your Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif was the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif and 1 or 2 more called his turn bet but your pumping the pot up with a worse hand that could even be 2nd best to SB, EP, and MP.

River: I'd have to call his bet closing the action on a huge pot but I'd expect to lose to A3, 36, 68, or a set.

Hey, I'm gettin' good at this!

[Trix]

I would play it in CO or later with 4+ limpers.

How come you are back at playing 3/6 btw. ?

[LondonBroil]

Re-reading the hand I thought you posted in CO-1, hence my remark about preflop being fine. I'm gonna change my remark to preflop with these 2 quotes.

[ QUOTE ]
but it appears to be a typical loose table. I am dealt Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I limp

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd muck it before the flop.

[Brian]

Hi London,

Sorry, I don't understand the significance of your two quotes. Could you go into more detail about why you'd muck pre-Flop? Did you see how loosely my opponents played post-Flop? You don't think this hand is profitable at such a loose table with 3 players already in and a decent position?

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi Trix,

I am not in the positive for any limit I have tried above 3/6. I will be returning to 5/10 shortly though.

-Brian

[LondonBroil]

I was trying to show you that you were a part of making this a loose table. Q8s is not a powerhouse hand, even in loose games. You make money in loose games by playing tighter than your oppponents, not the same way.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi London,

Sorry, I don't understand the significance of your two quotes. Could you go into more detail about why you'd muck pre-Flop? Did you see how loosely my opponents played post-Flop? You don't think this hand is profitable at such a loose table with 3 players already in and a decent position?


[/ QUOTE ]

Brian,

I would usually muck this preflop because:

1. Since I'm two off of the button, my position is only pretty good, but not great;
2. I still have four players remaining to act after me;
3. I'm not going to feel good about going to war if I flop a Q since I only have an 8 kicker.
4. Finally, since I'm "new to the table," I probably haven't been there long enough to really get a sense of how loose-passive the table is playing and how well or poorly my opponents play.

Given all of the above, I would pass on this hand.

[Brian]

Chesspain,

Who said I am going to war if I Flop a Queen? Part of playing this hand is that presumably I'll be able to Flop a pair of Queens and be able to fold a fair amount of the time. Also, while I was new to the table, it didn't take my watching many hands to see that the table was fairly juicy and that the players were generally going way too far with their hands.

Of course, it doesn't really surprise me that most of you would say to fold this. SS has really tightened up as of late. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Perhaps the call was a little loose. IMO, it wasn't at all. But, just taking a look at the post-Flop action, these players obviously took their hands too far and I was going to be able to extract the maximum had I actually made a hand.

-Brian

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
You make money in loose games by playing tighter than your oppponents, not the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more. I make my money in loose games from my opponents mistakes. They play way too loose both pre and post Flop, and thus you can play many more hands and give up a little ground pre-Flop in hopes to make it up post-Flop, where your opponents generally play awfully and call the River with bottom pair, etc.

If I played as Tighty McWhitey and only got in there with them with good hands, I think I'd be giving up a fair amount. Certainly, tight play does get the money. But that doesn't mean that there aren't places for looseness. And, it's just Q8s. It's not that bad of a hand. I saw a hand not that long ago in Mid-High where I believe AndyB limped with 85s in the CO-1 after 1 awful limper, and Mason said it was a close call. I wouldn't go that far, because I do not think that I play well enough post-Flop to make up THAT much ground, but Q8s is along the lines of what my opponents limp with, plus I have a good position and can play it decently post-Flop.

-Brian

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Who said I am going to war if I Flop a Queen? Part of playing this hand is that presumably I'll be able to Flop a pair of Queens and be able to fold a fair amount of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case I'ld want at least one or more of the following: somewhat better position, somewhat better kicker, one or two more limpers ahead of me--in essense, I'ld want a better situation in which to play.



[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the call was a little loose. IMO, it wasn't at all. But, just taking a look at the post-Flop action, these players obviously took their hands too far and I was going to be able to extract the maximum had I actually made a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I try to avoid using after-the-fact knowledge to assess the correctness or incorrectness of my hand selection.

[BottlesOf]

The preflop limp is a little suspect, but if this table was really crazy, I guess it's ok, although...I don't know, you'd have to do one of those calculations like in the DS thread recently posted by Clark (Work out how many times you'll flop such that you want to continue and how often you'll win and how much etc.)

Flop: Fine

I'm not sure about the turn c/r. I did something on pokerstove which said you have 24% equity against 6 random hands, but the hands you're up against aren't random (even though it is Party) so I think that proves just about nothing. (Aren't I helpful? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I don't exactly see the turn c/r for value, it seems close, but the fact that button 3-bet (which I wouldn't have seen coming) kills that.

River: fine.

[Brian]

Chesspain,

[ QUOTE ]
I try to avoid using after-the-fact knowledge to assess the correctness or incorrectness of my hand selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll keep this as simple as possible. My evaluation of the players before the hand was that they were loose. They then proceeded to play loose in the hand. How is that after-the-fact knowledge?

-Brian

[Bob T.]

The preflop call is borderline, but I think it is OK, given the game conditions.

I don't really like the turn checkraise, I don't know if you have enough value to justify it with the nonnut flush draw, and your mediocre overcards.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in CO-1. EP, MP, LP all limp, I limp, CO and Button limp

[/ QUOTE ]

Your characterization of CO-2 being "LP" seems atypical. I thought CO-1 was = LMP, and anything before that was clearly under the "MP" heading.

Under HEPFAP hand groupings it's a group 7 and not playable outside the blinds/button. But in your defense, the Carson book charts say Q8s is playable in MP with 4-5 limpers. Personally, I wouldn't play it, becuase I don't play well enough post-flop, but it's not unreasonable to do so.

Did BB have JJ-AA?

[Brian]

Bob,

I have a gutshot draw as well. Does that change anything for you?

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi ddubois,

I am in the seat next to the cutoff, and I generally consider the last 3 seats to be LP.

-Brian

[ddubois]

I am in the seat next to the cutoff, and I generally consider the last 3 seats to be LP.

But you said LP limped, then you limped, which makes four. Sorry to nitpick.

[Brian]

Ah, I see what you are saying. Yeah, when I type out hand histories I generally prefer to keep all the names seperate, as opposed to "MP1, MP2, and MP3 all limp", which can get confusing to read. Generally between the use of UTG, EP, MP, LP, CO, and BTN, I have enough different titles to work with. But, alas, too many were in this hand, so I turned MP3 into LP. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian

[Peter]

On the turn you have 12 probably clean outs, and 3 Q's I wouldn't want to consider as outs. You get 3:1 on your raise, which in my opinion isn't enough to raise here, especially since you don't want to get 3 bet and because you have to call a bet on the river if a Q hits because the pot is so big.

I wouldn't checkraise the turn.
Rest of the hand sounds fine in my opinion.

Peter

[Brian]

Hi Peter,

I am getting 4:1 on my raise on the Turn. The Button bet, and SB, EP, and MP all called. I agree that getting 3-bet is completely awful and to be honest I wasn't expecting it at all. The Button hadn't shown any strength yet and I figured he was just betting when checked to.

-Brian

[Brian]

The Button had 63o for the monster pot. Too bad another 6 didn't hit /images/graemlins/wink.gif

-Brian