How did you become a better player??

[Kilroy]

I, like many, have been lurking in this forum for several months before deciding to post. I have tried to use the information in this forum along with the books I have read (WLLHE, HFAP, Theory of Poker) but I feel like I have information overload which results in poor play. With all the information available, I started to wonder how others became good players. I have about 5M hand in poker tracker and I try to read a book, (mainly focused on WLLHE) and then go through hands on the poker tracker replayer to find mistakes. I try to cover both losing and winning hands because I have found many winning hands that should have never been played and many losing hands that could have been winners. I then go play some more (Party .5/1)and do the same thing. In addition, I check this forum regulary. Unfortunately, my results are going in the wrong direction. The school of hard knocks is expensive!! Any secrets to learning this game are appreciated. I would be interested in hearing what methods you chose to improve your play and a priority of the basic skill you used initially. This fish wants to get some of his money back. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks

[bernie]

I got turbo TH and ingrained basic preflop play along with basic flop play. First step starts with the starting hands. Play tighter than you think you should. Then maybe play a little tighter.

This program saved me a ton in learning the basics. More than paid for itself.

b

[JTrue]

Play in the micro-limits on Party can be frustrating, my advice is to basically play as tight as possible like Bernie said, pretty much no matter how tight you play you will get action on your good hands in .5-1. People are so busy trying to win every single pot that most don't notice how many hands a person is playing.

[sublime]

Post hands, and more importantly post your opinion on posted hands. Try to figure out why winning players do what they do and ask as many questions as possible. Dont be afraid to be *wrong* and just keep playing. Also like Bernie said its better to err on the side of caution with pre flop hand criteria.

[RcrdBoy]

Sounds like you are on the right track.

PT, some good reading, practice, and this forum will all help get you there.

Bernie's suggestion of tightening up PF is a good one. You should focus on your hand selection PF and on your position.

Post any hands that are giving you problems. There are some great posters around here giving out great advice at a price you can't beat! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Mike

[B Dids]

I just want to second this. Nothing has done for more my game than letting other people tell me what I've done wrong or right.

[bernie]

Notice i said play tighter until you learn how to play more hands. I basically started with Group 1-4 and pairs. That was it. I still screw em up. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Many newer players have a problem 'watching' the action and give in. They start playing too many hands. Some hands are ok to play, but then they screw up postflop with em, negating their value in that texture of a game. Playing overtight to start has many benefits.

Then when you actually see 3 flops in an orbit, you may question whether you're playing too loose. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

b

[rr2000]

If you are not beating 0.5/1, you may want to try Stars 5c/10c,2c/4c. These are the games I started with, and this is where I fixed my early leaks. (I still visit there to steam off /images/graemlins/grin.gif ). When you achieve winrate of 2BB/hr or greater, you can move to party 0.5/1.

[Shalara]

Skills I think are important:

Attitude Skills:

1. Discipline! If you don't have discipline, it doesn't matter how many books you read or what you do, it ain't gonna happen. Can't play stuff like A5o from UTG because you have a 'feeling' it's going to win /images/graemlins/tongue.gif The discipline to play your best game no matter what is the number one most important skill, imo.

2. A willingness to learn. Already I've seen people who come here and post and I'm left wondering why they do. They don't seem to pay attention to any advice at all. And that's okay, but until you're willing to accept that you might be making mistakes, and to scrupulously examine your game, and what people say about it, you won't get any better. I haven't been posting here long, but I've seen other people like me who are also willing to learn, and it shows! They are kicking butt all over the place. It gives me a lot of hope for the future. This skill runs a close second, I think.

3. Self-Confidence. Whining apprehension gets no-one anywhere in this game! And you have to be able to pick yourself up after bad runs, too. You can't be aggressive and wimpy at the same time. It takes guts! Tight but aggressive, all the way. Very important.

Aptitude:

1. Empathy: This skill is the one that lets you read hands, put yourself in other people's shoes. How do you see them? How do you think they percieve you? Do they seem to even notice that other players at the table? A good understanding of people makes for good hand-reading skills, a must in on-line poker.

2. Math (Statistics): Very important. What are the odds? I must admit I struggle with this one. I often have copious notes by my computer. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif At least once a week, I sit down for hours and do odds problems. Simple ones at that, I imagine--I've looked in the probabilities section, and frankly, it nearly makes my head explode. But it's something I have to continuously work on. I've always been a whiz at speed math & algebra etc, but proportions and statistics are hard. Don't know why.

3. Reasoning: Thinking about the game is important too. Understanding why you make certain plays is vital. Anticipating players' reactions, looking back to see if a hand could have been played better (whether it won or not)... all that is important.

No doubt I've missed some; someone will certainly add to it if I have. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Stuff I do to improve:

I read tons. Got Krieger's "More Hold'em Excellence", HEPFAP, ToP, Tournament Poker FAP, WLLH, Poker for Dummies /images/graemlins/smirk.gif, "Hold'em Poker" by David Sklansky, and a little orange poker zen thingy, which I don't think is all that, but it does use lots of Sun Tzu quotes, and has the right attitude. I like it /images/graemlins/wink.gif I read through these books several nights a week. Just whatever catches my fancy at the time.

I use StatKing to record every session, like it or not. I think that documentation is vital to improving the game. If you don't acknowledge or realize a problem, you can't fix it. (I'll be getting PokerTracker within the next couple few months, as it looks to be awesome!)

I discuss hands with my boyfriend. He is the only other winning player I know IRL, though I know a few people that like to play, or even think they are winning players.

He is the one who pointed me to this place (and the one who introduced me to the idea that poker was a beatable game). I post here if I'm not sure about a hand. Or even if I think I was right, but I'd like to know. I respond to lots of hands too... if I'm wrong about the way something should be played, I learn why and how. I'm also exposed to new ideas and thoughts, and I use these to improve.

At .5/1, I stick to pure WLLH. Any deception plays or other interesting nifty things are completely lost on your opponents. ABC poker is the only way I've been able to beat it. But "Theory of Poker" will give you a lot of insight into why certain plays work. It is my favorite of all my hold'em books, by far.

Good luck & Welcome /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[RcrdBoy]

How are these games? I've always wondered how seriously people took them at such low limits.

I guess some people probably feel the same about .50/1.

-Mike

[jmark]

[ QUOTE ]
I have about 5M hand in poker tracker

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you don't mean 5 Million! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

What are your pokertracker stats? (VPIP PFR, aggression factors, etc. etc.) maybe that will give a place to start looking for leaks.

I started off playing strictly by WLLHE (2nd edition). It was great for me. Sometimes I feel like I owe Lee Jones some % of my winnings. When I started reading 2+2 I realized I was playing too tight, so I went overboard and became way too aggressive for the 0.5/1 tables, so make sure you don't make that mistake.

Good luck
Mark

[blackaces13]

You're lookin at it.

[JSD]

Do a search on "Noted Poker Authority" /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Then when you actually see 3 flops in an orbit, you may question whether you're playing too loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last Saturday at the casino, I started off the night by seeing exactly one flop in 3 orbits... and it was a loose call too. K6s in the CO.

[JSD]

[ QUOTE ]

Last Saturday at the casino, I started off the night by seeing exactly one flop in 3 orbits... and it was a loose call too. K6s in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've had streaks playing live where I saw one flop in three hours.

[ZootMurph]

Got a link for Turbo TH?

[Nemesis]

personally i think the micro micro limits might be better than Turbo TH. They will cost you about the same in all likelyhood, and you get to play against real people.

[chief444]

I used that program as well when I first started learning (only about 6 months ago...but seems like much longer):). I think it is a good program for someone just starting out who knows the basics. The advice it gives is generally good. But there are some flaws with it and some things that it just does not account for. Good for starting out but once you aquire some experience and improve your game it quickly becomes obvious that anyone considered a good player would be able to outplay the advice given.

That being said, I feel it was money worth spent as it gave me some sort of playing experience and feel for the game before having to put any money into play.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
post your opinion on posted hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very, very good point sublime.

I used to be somewhat "shy" in this regard. I used to be afraid that my thoughts would be wrong and (a) I'd look stupid or (b) my advice would be harmful to the original poster. But once I got over (a) and started putting my thoughts out there I started to improve much more quickly. Then I realized that there is no reason to fear (b) because there are so many knowledgable posters on this site that will correct errors.

[ QUOTE ]
and ask as many questions as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another excellent point by sublime. If you read a HH and don't understand why everyone is saying to raise on the flop, you should ask. The veteran posters on this site give great advice but are sometimes very brief with their replies. I'm sure this is because the answer comes so quickly to them, but if it doesn't seem obvious to you, don't be afraid to ask them to why something is correct. I can guarantee you that you aren't the only one that doesn't know.

Hope this helps.

[Raiser]

One more thing. There are a number of posters on this site that I make an effort to read every post they make. I will give my list here with the hopes that I don't offend anyone for leaving them out. Others can reply here if I've overlooked someone.

Ed Miller
Clarkmeister
Joe Tall
Bob T.
Ulysses
Trix
Nottom
Mike Gallo
Dyanast
bernie

and more recently

bisonbison
sfer

Of course this list is in no way inclusive of all the great posters here, but it's a good start. Go back and read the last 100 posts or so by these guys.

[MicroBob]

i like a lot of the responses here.

my standard advice is to hang-out more in the ML forum. you say you've read a lot of the threads there....but you really should consider 'throwing yourself to the wolves' as it were and posting some HH's.
it's really not as embarassing as you might think to have 10 other people tell you how horribly you messed up a hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

there'a a general understanding that we've all been there...or are still there.


the advice about playing tighter then you think is necessary to get yourself over the hump is good too.


if you remain dedicated to studying and learning...particularly in the ML forum....then i suspect you will make it.

[bernie]

Maybe the penny games. But if those play like a fake money full game, it takes forever to get a hand over with. With turbo, you can get 200 hands in about 20 mins. Alls you do is 'zip' through any hand you dont play and only play the default starting hands. The repetition is a great tool.

There is no reason to spend more than the cost of TTH to learn starting hands and basic flop play. The advice starts to really blow on about the turn and on. But for a beginner, preflop and flop should help out immensly.

I still use it once in awhile to try things out or to work on some stuff in my game. Things i want to try without added expense.

b

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
and more recently

bisonbison
sfer


[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Thanks. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Add GoT, Louis Landale, Bob T., BigEndian and a ton of others on SS.

[LeftBack]

Turbo Texas Hold'em at:
Wilson Software (http://www.wilsonsoftware.com/tthwin1.html)

Also interesting:
Low Limit Holdem TTH Profile (http://www.lowlimitholdem.com/turbo_texas_hold.htm)

[Dieter01]

ddubois posted this link earlier this week:

http://www.kingscascade.com/Poker.html


Its a free Excel based preflop simulator. You can select either HEPAP or WLLHE mode. Its not meant to compete with Turbo TH, but its free and helpful.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and more recently

bisonbison
sfer


[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Thanks. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Add GoT, Louis Landale, Bob T., BigEndian and a ton of others on SS.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's gotta make you feel good herv.

[Kilroy]

Thanks to everyone who responded! I am stunned by the amount of information available on this site but more importantly by the willingness to share it. I look forward to implementing many of the ideas expressed in the posts. I am certain with a lot of work and your help I can improve my game considerably.

Thanks again!!

[Greg J]

I have personally made a post a lot like this one, and was too blown away by how everyone responded and how cool they were.

and yes since doing that, posting hands, commenting on hands, i think i have become a better player.

I currently play what i consider "nano" limits, and have been for a little less than a month. I'm not cleaning up, but am ahead overall, and my fluctuations are getting smaller and smaller. Playing is how you REALLY get better -- it's where the rubber hits the road

post hands, and dont be afraid to post your opinions to hands. if you post an opinion and its wrong, or even debatable, someone will point it out, but usually in a tactful and constructive way that helps YOU learn. this forum is really an awesome resource.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I've had streaks playing live where I saw one flop in three hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had one last night. Just ask RustedCorpse. Amazingly, the first non-blind hand I played for 2 hours I raised QQ UTG and got called in 4 spots. So much for a tight image. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I had one last night. Just ask RustedCorpse. Amazingly, the first non-blind hand I played for 2 hours I raised QQ UTG and got called in 4 spots. So much for a tight image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last night my first hand I played in like a billion years I openraise UTG with AQo and it's cappped before it gets back to me and I fold. Talk about respect. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[RustedCorpse]

We got no respect at that table except from nathan, the one person we didn't want it from.
On a sidenote that hand where you had QQ and I had KK I'm really thinkng I made a bad laydown when that ace hit on the turn.

As far as improving play, after last night I would highly reccomend finding an experienced 2+2er in your area. Just having certain situations explained to you live makes an amazing difference.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Last night my first hand I played in like a billion years I openraise UTG with AQo and it's cappped before it gets back to me and I fold. Talk about respect

[/ QUOTE ]

What really makes it funny, respect-wise, is when you see they were capping it with crap. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

b

[B Dids]

I don't have a 2+2er, but I have a friend who studies as much as I do. We spend amazing amounts of time talking about our plays and what not. I find just talking about the game is a huge help. There's been days where I won't let myself play, and just talk and read 2+2 to get in the right mindstate.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
What really makes it funny, respect-wise, is when you see they were capping it with crap.


[/ QUOTE ]

QJo was my 3better and pocket 9's was the capper.

Flop? QQA. LOL.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
On a sidenote that hand where you had QQ and I had KK I'm really thinkng I made a bad laydown when that ace hit on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing after I got you to fold. With 18 to 1 to close the action on the turn heads-up I have to be wrong in my read and have the best hand only a small percent of the time to make calling okay. I'm still pretty sure he turned a wheel but... Live and learn.

That was a sweet table until loose passive/aggressive (loose bipolar?) Asian dude busted out. Gambool!

[RustedCorpse]

[ QUOTE ]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing after I got you to fold. With 18 to 1 to close the action on the turn heads-up I have to be wrong in my read and have the best hand only a small percent of the time to make calling okay. I'm still pretty sure he turned a wheel but... Live and learn.
That was a sweet table until loose passive/aggressive (loose bipolar?) Asian dude busted out. Gambool!

[/ QUOTE ]

I told you I really don't tilt right? What does set me off, is when I start thinking about the hand the next day. It's about then that it settles in how irrational that guy was even if he did make the wheel. If I was at a table with people playing the way you and I did and a hand came up where they went back and forth I'd be out in a heartbeat. I'd just love to be in his head for a moment.