folding KK preflop

[BettnTibetn]

i just successfully folded KK preflop when AA was out there...it was a good feeling. It was a pretty easy fold when it goes raise, re-raise all in, re-reise even more from a really tight player. has anyone layed down KK prelop when its only 1 person your playing against

[Cornbread Maxwell]

Nice job on successfully folding KK, but I think the saying is that if you never fold KK preflop for the rest of your life, you've probably never made a mistake doing so.

[tolbiny]

actually this hand has been bothering me for a few days and i was going to post it. Second hand of a 20+2 sng all 10 players left and i get KK in LP. folded to utg+3 who raises to T150, Utg+4 pushes all in for T800 and it was folded to me. I used up nearly all of my time before i folded, and didn't like doing so. One of the other players called all- in (with AT no less, who says these games are getting tougher?) so i got to see The all- in raisers QQ hold up. Needless to say both these players have notes next to their names now- but its hard for me to determine what i shoud have done without being results oriented (especially since i took 4th... arrgh)

[Peter Harris]

see quiz 25 on p166 in TPFAP

the one and only ever time to let go of KK!

Pete Harris

[stupidsucker]

what are the % chances that AA is out there the same time KK is.

I saw it three times today alone in about 20 tourneys.
(2 of which I had the KK-both times I got knocked out)

My lasy 60 tourneys have been filled with so much unreal rivers and pp's I am going to commit myself.

[el_grande]

This is the only time I would fold it.

To me it's not worth the possibility of making the catastrophic error of folding KK when there is no AA.

[Don_Lapre]

Good job, I don't know if I could do it online. I folded it once in a NL cash game against an opponent I had played with many times.It is a nice feeling.

DL

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I can't imagine ever folding KK with a single opponent.

[Cptkernow]

You should have called.

Given the texture of party sitngos. Players often will be pushing all in with TT+ and AJ-AK. Sometimes even KQs. I assume they must be doing this as they still do it in the 50s.

[Blanton13]

I was in a SNG two days ago in which I had AA and my oponent was KK. The flop had AKT. Every hand was capped. It was fixed tourney, so it wasn't the last hand per se, but I cut his legs out from him on that one. His response to the loss...

"Third time I've lost with KKK...."

[gmunny]

I play $30 single table NL SNG's at PP and I never fold KK (or AA) preflop. Too many people call with crap and it is a good way to double up. Now QQ or AK is a different story and it depends if I have any reads on the players. G$

[t_perkin]

There are very few preflop situations when you should fold KK. (Situations such as #25 in TPFAP being the exceptions - it is situation in the first hours of the WSOP final - so not one many of us will come across)

Folding them PF in a $20 SnG is pretty criminal.
You are just not against AA often enough, and even if you are you will win just over 17% of the time.

Tim

[37offsuit]

I've folded KK preflop a few times. The typical situation is where a smaller stack goes all in, a large stack pushes all in after to try to lock out competition and then someone else with a big stack calls.

I don't want to take KK against 3 people when there is a chance that two of my opponents are going bye bye and one has AA and another has AK (giving me one out) especially if that will get me in the money or at least to the bubble and there is still a small stack out there.

[hetron]

What does the note on the QQ guy say? He made the right move.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
actually this hand has been bothering me for a few days and i was going to post it. Second hand of a 20+2 sng all 10 players left and i get KK in LP. folded to utg+3 who raises to T150, Utg+4 pushes all in for T800 and it was folded to me. I used up nearly all of my time before i folded, and didn't like doing so. One of the other players called all- in (with AT no less, who says these games are getting tougher?) so i got to see The all- in raisers QQ hold up. Needless to say both these players have notes next to their names now- but its hard for me to determine what i shoud have done without being results oriented (especially since i took 4th... arrgh)

[/ QUOTE ]
Your fold was horrendous.

[ZeeJustin]

I hope you had a VERY good read on this tight player before making this fold.

[ZeeJustin]

I play 200+15 NL SNG's, and I have never folded AA or KK preflop.

[A_PLUS]

Here is the quick and dirty

Even if you have an extraordinary read on a player, in a SNG. This isn't a live game, so you can't be sure. Especially if you think he will only push with AA, you have to see this called to find out for sure, and there is a decent chance, he/she knows this and uses it on rare occasions for a big bluff.

With the fish at typical SNG's (I play UB 10 20). I am called regularly with everything from JJ, to KQs.

You HAVE to make a big bet, against any Ace, you are only getting the best of it apx, 65% of the time. Make them pay to get lucky.

If you are reraised all-in. Stop thinking about the odds of AA and KK being dealt the same hand. Instead, think, what are the odds that this guy would be holding Aces if he went all-in. If you break down the hands that most fish will go All-in with, this is what I came up with

FISH PUSH HANDS (AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQs, KQs)
Associated % (.5,.08, .5, .5, .68 .3, .3)

So assuming that these are the only options if the player pushes (which sadly they aren't)

They will hold AA (17%), KK (3%), AK (24%), QQ (17%), JJ (17%), AQs (11%), and KQs (11%).

The expected win rate, with these assumptions is still apx, 67%. Which is a push situation for me. Unless I know that I can not lose by playing post flop (i.e. Helmuth). For the expected win rate to drop below 50%, you have to assume that it is 3X as likely that the player holds AA compared to the rest of these hands. I just dont see anyone making that cold of a read online.

So PUSH those Kings.

[A_PLUS]

Sorry about a mistake in the last post. I just pulled some % for KQs off of an old sheet, without adjusting for the 2 kings that you hold.

If you assume any KQ, the % is 21% for that hand, and 69% win rate.

-------

Also, my first game after this post. UB 5$ SNG. I get dealt cowboys 2x. 1st UG+1, I raise 4X BB, only win the blinds. This was very early too, so not much of a pot. Later, at the 30-60 level, people are getting more aggressive. I have KK, UG, I double the BB. Button reraises to 3X, I reraise to 1/2 his stack, he pushes, I call.

Kh, Ks vs. Jd, Qh

Flop: 4d, 9d, Kc
turn: 6d
river:Td

Busted with the flush. The good news is, this thread kept me from steaming, and I slowly built my stack back and finished 2nd.

[mscott2374]

No, and I don't think that I ever could