PLO8 hand for criticism

[Benwa]

I've been lurking here for awhile and this seems to be about the best place on the net for Omaha/8 discussion so here goes. I've just recently started playing PLO8 and I regularly play in the $2 buy-in game on UB to cut my teeth and get a feel for the game. I was up about $15 from the microlimits so I thought I'd take a shot at the $25 buy-in game to see how I'd fare. This money was all profit and losing it wouldn't be a big deal so I don't think it was "scared" money. More like "don't know exactly how to play this game" money. I've missed a few flops and a few draws so I'm down $10 at this point. I'd normally reload here but I've limited myself $25 for this game so I can't put more in.

Don't hold anything back. I can take it and I want to improve my game. I tried to put down what I was thinking on each street but it has been a few days since I played this hand. I still have to think hard to play Omaha/8 and the time limits online don't help me much.

Ultimate Bet Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $.25 BB (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($9.65)
BB ($25.20)
Hero ($15.05)
MP ($16.90)
CO ($37.60)
Button ($18.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $0.25, MP folds, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25.

I feel this is a playable hand UTG with 3 wheel cards, double-suited, and two broadway cards. If it gets good help on the flop, then it's got great scoop potential. Preflop is my weakest area in O8 and I'm looking to see cheaps flops that really hit my hand. I read that PLO8 is a game of homeruns and I definitely think this hand can go for the fences. The minimum raise makes me think the SB has a A2xx so I just want to take a flop and decide to go from there. Should I have opened for the pot here? I think this hand wants customers so I wanted to let people in behind me so I decided not to raise and play quite passively here.

Flop: ($1.25) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $1.5</font>, CO calls $1.50, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Well, I just flopped the two way nuts with a redraw to the spade nut flush. Visions of scooping this pot are going off in my head as long as I catch a spade or some high blanks. I'm going to bet the pot to build this pot that I'm taking all or 3/4's of.

Turn: ($4.25) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $4.5</font>, CO calls $4.50.
Well, I was wanting a spade, but preferring a higher one. This counterfeits my low so I'll split low with anyone with a deuce and another wheel card, but if the board doesn't pair then my spade nut flush should be good. True, I could be up against a straight flush if my opponent holds 26s or 67s, but I'm not looking for monsters underneath my bed here. Again, I'm going to bet the pot because i'm going to take at least 3/4's of the pot still.

River: ($13.25) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $8.55 (All-In)</font>, CO calls $8.55.
Hmm, he called my turn bet. At this point, I'm really unsure as to what he's drawing to. I have seen him show down some weak lows and pay off others when he did make a non-nut high draw but we're shorthanded here so you can't wait for the nuts. Was he drawing to a full house? Did he have a smaller flush? A straight draw without a low is probably not going to call that turn bet. I figure a straight or a smaller flush is going to have to fold here unless they have low backup. If he hit his fullhouse then I just lost the high. The fact that if I bet and get quartered I'm going to lose about a dollar but the fact that he might lay down his hand if it was busted is worth the risk. I throw in my last chips. I'm rooting for a fold but I figure if I'm called then I still have a decent chance for at least half the pot or 3/4's on a good day. I also think that I'm going to call a bet here so it's better to bet yourself than call.

Final Pot: $30.35
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $30.35, between Hero and CO.</font>

Would you have played the hand any differently, besides not letting your stack run short in a big bet game? Maybe a limp-reraise to isolate the SB when he re-opened the betting? I don't think my hand is strong enough for high to do that because I'm going to need some help from the flop to continue and I've decided that with the SB's A2 that I've tentatively put him on means we're splitting low headsup and my high is not strong enough to take him on yet.

As you can see, I have much to learn. As soon as my microlimit profits get up there, I'm going to purchase Ray Zee's high/low split book and I think it'll help out but until then I'd like to sponge some knowledge from you guys.
TIA /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[crockpot]

i see no reason to do anything differently on this hand, unless you are playing against opponents who might call 50-75 cents on the flop with a hand like 26xx or 53xx but fold it for the whole pot. against typical opponents it is simply correct to bet and win the maximum from sets or hands like A5xx or 64xx if they decide to keep calling you.

if you know your opponents well it can occasionally be a good play to bet less than the pot to induce them to draw at a hand that is not the nuts. unfortunately it is hard to figure out the maximum that an opponent will call on this kind of draw.

[Beavis68]

the flop is perfect - it seems as if you did not bet the pot, from my counting, there would have been at least two fifty in it. You should have bet if fully. You cant ask for better than a wheel and a nut flush draw.

Now the turn comes, and your low is counterfietted - you still have the flush You bet the max again.

Now on the river, the board paired. It is just too likely you will be quartered here - I would have probably check called it. And if I had the full pot amount in my stack, may have folded. PL hi/lo is a wicked evil horrible game - don't ya love it?

[crockpot]

oops, i got the size of the pot wrong (based on the turn bet being 3 times the flop bet, i thought it was $1.50). amend my comments to say that if you have weak opponents who might call a less than pot bet, bet about 1.25-1.50, otherwise bet the full pot.

[Buzz]

Benwa - I think you played the hand fine. You had a nice starting hand, even for UTG - and got a nice flop for the hand.

Then the turn is bad and the river is a nightmare. It happens. I feel sick when it happens to me - but it's part of the game.

Just a note about your table: You're not getting much action after the flop. If this is typical, seems like you're in a very-tight-post-flop game. It's difficult to make any money in such a game, maybe especially when it's six handed.

I suggest you look for greener pastures.

Buzz

[Benwa]

I thought I had bet the pot from the flop onwards, but I did underbet the flop to try to pull some people along with me and it didn't work so I went full-bore on the turn and river. There were a few minor errors in the output like the pot-size and the preflop calls to the SB's raise when I ran the hand through the HH convertor, but it's still much better than the raw HH.
My real question was how appropriate it was to bet the river. I thought if I did get quartered then I would be down one more dollar than if I just folded right there so I figured the times that the river bet would make my opponent fold would be worth the risk of being quartered myself, but I did have a feeling that it was very possible that I was no longer ahead in this hand but a bet might get a few hands marginally better than mine fold for fear of being quartered themself. I thought it was worth betting out with my possible underdog and rooting for the fold with the backup plan that I'm not losing much more than I've already invested into the hand. The same reasoning would apply to my opponent's hand also, so should I not expect him to fold here very often if ever, especially since my bet gives him him about 2.5:1 odds from the pot?

As it turns out, I was right about my opponent having smaller flushcards, but it just so happened that they were in numerical order. My opponent turns over 23c67s quartering me with his straight flush. That 4s on the turn was the one card that could swing me from 3/4'ing to being 3/4'ed. I had noticed the SF possibility but quickly discounted it and said if he's got that then I'm paying it off. I had noticed that I wasn't pushing my very strong but non-nut hands like top fullhouse or A-high flush with straight flush possibility on the microlimit tables hard enough and leaving money on the table when I had these hands, so I specifically told myself before I started that I'd push these hands hard tonight. Anyway, after that hand I felt crushed and I muttered and mumbled at the monitor for a few minutes. I told the opponent nice hand and packed it in for the night. Omaha is a devastating game and I think that's why I enjoy it so much. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Regardless of the outcome, I wasn't sure how good my preflop or river play was. It seems that I wasn't too far offbase in my play so I'm happy with that.

Thanks for the responses.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
My real question was how appropriate it was to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ben - You're going to call anyhow. And since you go all-in, you're not worried about being raised.

So the question is, "Do you think there's a good chance you're going to win more that half of the pot or not?"

You have the nuts for low, but your opponent probably does too.

But you're not only vulnerable to the straight flush, you're also vulnerable to a full house or quads. I'd be more worried about my opponent having a full house (or even quad fives) than the straight flush here.

If your opponent has any one of these hands that beat you, your opponent is going to bet to put you all-in - and you're going to call, all-in. So if you're beaten for high, you're going to get screwed regardless of what you do.

However, if you're not beaten for high, then it's clearly in your best interest to bet, all-in here.

Thus, in my humble opinion, you have a very clear all-in bet on the river. Didn't work out for you. Sickening, but that's the way it goes.

[ QUOTE ]
should I not expect him to fold here very often if ever, especially since my bet gives him him about 2.5:1 odds from the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's probably not going to fold here even if you do have him beaten for high - but if he does fold, you have lost nothing by betting.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, after that hand I felt crushed

[/ QUOTE ]

Righto. I would have felt crushed too.

[ QUOTE ]
I told the opponent nice hand and packed it in for the night.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good move, in my humble opinion. You can't always tell when you're on tilt. If there is a possibility of it, as there certainly would be after that beat, better to quit and play again another day.

[ QUOTE ]
Omaha is a devastating game and I think that's why I enjoy it so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't feel that way about it. I don't "enjoy" getting "devastated." Not at all. Honest.

Perhaps you have a serious gambling problem. I'm probably wrong - your remark probably doesn't mean anything at all - but all the same, you might consider looking into the possibility that you do have a serious gambling problem. If so, I know people who have been helped by Gamblers Anonymous.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of the outcome, I wasn't sure how good my preflop or river play was.

[/ QUOTE ]

You played fine, in my humble opinion. What got to you (and it gets to us all) was having such high hopes for scooping after the flop only to see your chances erode on the turn and river - and if you end up losing, as you did here.... I don't see any way around the dilemma. I know I'm going to get "rivered" sometimes - but it still hurts and I hate it every time it happens. I try to play so as to minimize the possibility.

Buzz

[Benwa]

Buzz,
I've read many of your posts in this section and think you put a lot of thought into your responses. I appreciate your knowledge and the fact that you share it.

You said what I thought already, but I wanted some veteran omaho players to point out any mistakes I may have made and not seen myself. I knew I was very possibly behind on the river but after figuring that getting quartered would cost me a dollar or I could pick up the pot so I fired away. I would have called a river bet so I should bet out aggressively especially since I can't be raised.

I don't think I have a gambling problem, in fact I'd take wagers that the shrink would give me a clean bill of health. That's a pretty bad joke, huh. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Addiction would be a hard to define between a problem and being determined and single-minded in the pursuit of goals but I think I'm going to ramble off-topic if I keep this line of thinking going. Devestating should be switched with "challenging" in the sentence you quoted. Saying that I enjoy being devestated isn't what I meant not in the self-destructive sense that it came across as. This game can be devestating in the fact that the emotional swings are greater than the limit holdem where I've become mostly desensitized. I can see firsthand that mental fortitude and handling a tough setback is very important to be successful at Omaha/8.

[Hung]

Benwa - I think you played the hand fine. You had a nice starting hand, even for UTG - and got a nice flop for the hand.
Hey Buzz,
What do you mean with even UTG? His hand is pretty good. I'd play that hand any position.
I used to play PLO too. Now I switched to limit. After the chip raise I would have bet pot. That's what I like about UB. There is a button to pot. So I keep potting all the time. You do need a little bit more money though. If you keep potting people will think you're a maniac and pay off your big hands. Potting preflop wont cost your much. It's like raising preflop (when playing limit) SOmetime you just raise to know what other gonna do. It's "an information raise". You're asking him: what do you have. If he reraises you got your answer.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean with even UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Hung - Just that.

As you know, position is very important in pot limit Omaha-8. Accordingly, I tend to not play many hands UTG.

But even out of position, even UTG, Ben's cards, in my humble opinion, make a playable starting hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd play that hand any position.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I meant by "even UTG."

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I have a gambling problem

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Ben - Sorry. I mentioned it just in case you might. But after reading your response, I don't think you do either.

No offense intended.

And thanks for the kind words.

Buzz

[Hung]

As you know, position is very important in pot limit Omaha-8. Accordingly, I tend to not play many hands UTG.

That's true. I did not realize it in the beginning. But if you can save a bet by folding UTG, it will be very profitable at the end of the month.
I tend to play too tight. Sometimes I call mediocre hands just to get out of tight mode. So the players don't think I'm a rock.