Party: Up against JJ and QQ unraised preflop

[Sandwich]

Twice this happened to me today on Party Poker's .5/1 Limit game, and I've begun to realize a huge hole in my game: namely, thinking that an opponent couldn't have a huge pocket hand if there was no raise preflop.

Here's an example...
First hand I get KJ on the button. Five limpers see the flop.

KcJc7d

EP bets, three callers, I raise, EP reraises, call, call, fold, I cap, all call so four of us to see the turn.

Turn card is

5h

EP bets, fold, fold, I raise, EP reraises, I cap, he calls. Here I'm thinking I guess it's possible that he has KK or JJ, but why didn't he raise preflop. Maybe he's on a flush draw? I still thought I had the best hand here.

River card is 2h.

Again EP bets, I raise, EP reraises and I call.

He shows me a set of Jacks.

Very frustrating...

So, did I go too far with this? Any advice?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
So, did I go too far with this? Any advice?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that capping the turn and raising the river is overplaying top two. He could have had a set of 7's which also has you beat. The first turn raise I think is fine since he could have a worse two pair or be betting a flush draw or good drawing hand. After that I just call down.

[namknils]

I agree here, I think that the Flop cap is mandatory but when he reraises you on the turn I call it down. I'm not even thinking KK or JJ at that point but the set of sevens that was mentioned.

[cardcounter0]

This is a known variety of Party Poker Fish. Some don't even raise pre-flop with AA. Once you have identified fish of this species, simply know that if they bet into you after you have raised, Immediately go into check/call mode because they have a MONSTER hand.

So after you capped the flop, and then EP bet into you on the Turn -- fold or call.

Usually the most common species of Party Fish would have checked the turn after a capped flop (even if they do have the NUTZ).

[Raiser]

I agree with namknils and chief.

Question. Was your KJ suited? Were there 5 limpers to you or 3 limpers and the blinds?

The reason I ask is: If there are 5 limpers to you and you have KJs on the button you should raise that hand pre-flop. I would probably raise with 4 limpers and the button. On the other hand, I dislike KJo so much that I would probably muck this hand pre-flop.

Do others agree?

[Rico Suave]

Hey Raiser:

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If there are 5 limpers to you and you have KJs on the button you should raise that hand pre-flop. I would probably raise with 4 limpers and the button. On the other hand, I dislike KJo so much that I would probably muck this hand pre-flop.

Do others agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will limp on the button with hands that I do not play anywhere else. So in short, even with 5 limpers, I will call KJo on the button. (In fact, I will limp in on the button with QTo and KTo with 2 or 3 weak limpers...but, shhh, please don't tell anyone.)

If there were 4 limpers to me in lmp, I muck.

I agree with raising limpers with KJs.

--Rico

[namknils]

I actually was figuring that this hand was not suited. I think it's a questionable limp/fold preflop but from the button I would usually call with it. I think it is on the border but I loosen up in later postions.

[cardcounter0]

Man, you guys leave a lot of money on the table.
KJo? I play on the button, 1 or 2 off the button.
KJs? I play from any position except UTG or UTG + 1.

Unless, there is a raise before me, don't call or re-raise, fold. Don't raise either hand, just limp in.

Of course, even if I flop two pair, I'm not capping streets into someone with trips, so you might want to play it tighter.

[Rico Suave]

Hey cardcounter:

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KJs? I play from any position except UTG or UTG +1

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I would limp with it from UTG in 95% of the games I play in.

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Don't raise either hand, just limp in.


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There are many occassions to raise preflop with both hands.

--Rico

[cardcounter0]

Like most poker questions, the answer is "it depends".

I'm interested that on one hand you say you would "If there were 4 limpers to me in lmp, I muck." and yet you say you play it UTG 95% of the time. Those most be some nice games you play in.

Would like to hear when a raise KJs or KJo is good, other than the folded all the way to you steal the blinds move.

[RcrdBoy]

KJo doesn't play well multiway. I rarely play this out of the blinds and if I play it I'm almost always first in from LP and I ALWAYS raise it.

KJs on the other hand is a good multiway hand because of the flush possibility. That's one of the reasons you may not want to raise it in EP. You want callers so you have players to pay you off when you hit.

Big difference between the two hands.

-Mike

[Rico Suave]

Hey Cardcounter:

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I'm interested that on one hand you say you would "If there were 4 limpers to me in lmp, I muck."

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I said I muck KJo, certainly not KJs.

My point was that I do not like to play KJo in a family pot, but if I have the button, I will. So if 4 people limp to me and I am in lmp, I probably muck KJo.

[ QUOTE ]
and yet you say you play it UTG 95% of the time

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KJs...not KJo. Most of the party low limit games are passive enough that I feel comfortable limping UTG with KJs. There are a few 3/6 tables I have been at recently where I wouldn't limp.

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Would like to hear when a raise KJs or KJo is good, other than the folded all the way to you steal the blinds move.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. 3+ limpers to me and I hold KJs in the CO or button. I raise here most of the time.

2. One or 2 weak limpers and I hold KJo in the CO or button. I raise here a good percentage of the time. The tighter the blinds, the more apt I would be to raise it.

3. At uber tight tables, I will open raise with KJs from any position, including UTG.

Of course, you are right in that "it depends"

--Rico

[Sandwich]

In my above example, my hand was not suited.


[ QUOTE ]
My point was that I do not like to play KJo in a family pot, but if I have the button, I will. So if 4 people limp to me and I am in lmp, I probably muck KJo.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I understand that KJo can be a dominated hand (especially in a raised pot), but I thought it was a decent hand to play in a family pot because of the straight possibility.... is that the wrong way to think about it?

[Rico Suave]

Hey sandwich:

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In my above example, my hand was not suited.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know. Somewhere along the lines KJs got thrown into the discussion mix.
BTW, I do not have a problem with your limp, and I like the way you played the hand up until the turn cap. Once your opponent 3-bets on the turn, I would just call him down.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I understand that KJo can be a dominated hand (especially in a raised pot), but I thought it was a decent hand to play in a family pot because of the straight possibility.... is that the wrong way to think about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, maybe. You play KJo for the big card value and the straight value. You wouldn't play 65o in lmp after 3 limpers would you?

I am sure you have heard from your book study and these forums that big offsuit do not play as well multiway. Now, I will be the first to admit that I think this is an overused sentiment and is frequently used as the basis for limping with hands like AKo or AQo. But in the case of KJo, I think that it is so marginally profitably, that being in a family pot is not so attractive. How marginally profitable? Go look at the the ev stats at pokerroom.com for KJo. It has a negative ev until you get to 3 off the button, and even then , the results aren't stellar. So any value that you lose from that hand by playing it multiway is pretty significant.

You might note that KJs is profitable from any position, and significantly so. I think this clearly displays how much value "suitedness" adds to a hand.

Clearly, I am no poker expert, and I hope that if my reasoning is fuzzy, someone will correct me.

--Rico

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a known variety of Party Poker Fish. Some don't even raise pre-flop with AA. Once you have identified fish of this species, simply know that if they bet into you after you have raised, Immediately go into check/call mode because they have a MONSTER hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This species has recently been spotted at PokerStars as well, sporting their distinctive JJ markings.

[Beavis68]

when I play a hand strongly, and keep getting bet back at, I usually slow down. He also could have had 7-7. Party is pretty manic, but on UB, if people wake up swinging away at the pot, they usually hit something pretty strong.

The hand could be A-J, AK or even AA the problem is still the same.