Should dealers discuss hand values during live play?

[nolanfan34]

Wanted to see what others though of this. I was playing $3/$6 in a local B&M the other day. One of the dealers was talking quite a bit about strategy and different card values.

I suppose I wonder how acceptable this is in the first place, but it's also what he said that made me raise an eyebrow.

He was explaining how "QT suited is the best hand in poker according to Doyle Brunson."
A guy asked "is that because it wins the most?"
He responded, "No, but you can win the most money when you win with it."

Questionable advice aside, he then proceeded to explain to the table how "all poker books are a waste of time, because they're only written to get you into the casino." He also talked about how the books are only written for $10/$20 games and higher anyway.

Personally I don't mind chatty dealers, but talking about possible cards in play and strategy I thought was a little strange. Anyone else have thoughts on this? I didn't say anything, because his "advice" was so strange, but was wondering if others would also consider this unappropriate for a dealer to discuss.

[andyfox]

Dealers should only speak to help the game run smoothly. Chatting about the weather or something unrelated to the game detracts his attention from where it should be and should be discouraged. Talking about poker strategy is completely unacceptable and it should be brought to the attention of the floor. He should be reprimanded and if it happens again, fired.

[Ed Miller]

Dude, blackjack dealers are even worse. I don't play very often, but when I do, I play unfailingly perfect basic strategy. I get criticized for my bad play at least once every other session... including the most recent, "Well, you obviously aren't a Noted Blackjack Authority," from a particularly lippy broad. I think she wanted me.

[LetsRock]

The dealer was completely out of line. It is innapropriate for anybody to be talking like this during a hand, but the dealer has zero business talking poker strategy while on duty.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer was completely out of line. It is innapropriate for anybody to be talking like this during a hand, but the dealer has zero business talking poker strategy while on duty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you guys are confirming what I thought to begin with. Next time I'll ask the floor to come over. I just had never heard a dealer talk so openly about what he thought about certain hands, etc. I got a good laugh at the poker books comment though.

Of course this guy also burned and turned 4th street on one hand before the flop betting was complete. The turn was a 3rd spade, which he was forced to shuffle back into the deck after getting a ruling from the floor. Couple of players were not happy with that one. Needless to say, this wasn't the Bellagio or anything... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

And Ed, you are Noted Poker Authority, not Noted Blackjack Authority, like you said...of course they're going to tell you how to play your hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

The hitting the soft 18 seems to really bother a lot of them more than just about anything else.

[Ed Miller]

The hitting the soft 18 seems to really bother a lot of them more than just about anything else.

Yup. I don't think it makes them think any better of it when I scream "GAMBOOOOOOOOOL" as I do it.

[Ulysses]

Dealers also seem quite perplexed when I don't care at all whether third base stays or hits.

[Homer]

The hitting the soft 18 seems to really bother a lot of them more than just about anything else.

Half the fun of blackjack is pissing off ploppies.

There's nothing quite like saying for all to hear "think I'll take the dealer's bust card", then catching a 10 to your soft 18 and watching the dealer flip a T to his 5, then drawing a 6 to make 21. It's especially funny if you're the smallest bettor at the table.

[MicroBob]

try actually BEING a BJ dealer (as i was for 8 months) if you actually DO have a clue how to play.

non-stop conversations at the table about 'staying consistent with your 16's' 'always take even-money', etc etc.

i would give some advice on the sly if it was a total newbie who didn't even know how to double-down (you have an 11 and i have a 6....so you can double-down if you like)...but on the stuff where the other players would generally disagree (doubling S18) i just stayed out of the way.


but yes, i've had several BJ dealers criticize my play before...and it's just bizarre. i particularly enjoy all the 'well, i've been dealing for 11 years and i can DEFINATELY tell you that hitting 16 vs. 10 doesn't work...you're just costing yourself money...blah blah blah.'

usually the first time i split my 9's shuts them up because then they just assume that i'm really dumb. hitting 12 vs. 4 or 5 in a ngeative count is a ton of fun too.

final BJ comment - i am hardly the greatest mathematical mind in the world...but i find it stunning that so many players and dealers (probably over 95%) cant seem to comprehend that insuring your 18 or whatever is pretty much the same thing as taking even-money on your BJ. and also that insuring a 20 is the same as insuring a 9...you're just placing a seperate bet on whether or not there is a 10 underneath.


all the people who think that all of these poker-fishies are going to get smarter just haven't spent enough time with the Blackjack ploppies of the world to get a broader perspective on how most 'gamblers' think.


oh yeah, that poker-dealer is just freaking bizarre. i've never seen that before.
i wouldnt turn him in though....i would just start agreeing with everything he says and back him up on his 'all poker-books suck' contention.
actually, i'm just kidding...i would probably either report this guy to the manager...or i might just tell him directly that it is inappropriate for a dealer to discuss poker-strategy at the table (unless you fear you can't pull this off without the other players thinking you're a jerk).

[toots]

I dunno.

If the dealer was giving bad advice, maybe it'd spice the game up.

Really, while I can see the objection to this sort of thing, I don't really go along with it. There's this big fiction at poker tables that anything can be discussed except for the elephant sitting in the middle of the table. Seems silly.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
or i might just tell him directly that it is inappropriate for a dealer to discuss poker-strategy at the table (unless you fear you can't pull this off without the other players thinking you're a jerk).

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first time there, and the game was so soft I didn't want to make a big deal out of this. In the future I might say something to the floor though.

I almost forgot the best one. A couple of times, the player directly to my left checked down his hand or check called heads up on the river. Each time he had a middling two-pair and took down the pot. After the second time, the dealer actually said "I can't believe you checked the nuts on the river."

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure two-pair can never be the rock solid nuts before the hands are shown... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[John Deere]

Once, a dealer at the Borg (Darcy) peeked at my cards. I had open-raised with KQs and everyone folded. I said something to the effect of, "Good, my hand wasn't that good anyway." After she looked at my cards, I said, "They weren't _that_ bad, were they?" She said, "Nah, they were all right."

I didn't care, I thought it was funny.

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
There's this big fiction at poker tables that anything can be discussed except for the elephant sitting in the middle of the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, this attitude really bugs me. Too many players think that it's OK to openly discuss what THEY think is going on during a hand and it really is not right. We almost kicked someone out of our home game this week for constantly showing his mucks (preflop) or announcing his hand as he's throwing it out. It changed the play of several hands since his discards happened to affect the descisions that other had to make regarding their draws.

Just because YOU see an elephant on the table, doesn't mean that everyone can see it. Oh, they'll see it after you bring it up, but before then it may be transparent, because they're newbies or they're so focused on their hand that they don't even notice the 4 flush or the paired board or whatever your elephant du jour looks like. Even experienced players will on occasion fail to see a normally obvious situation and it really is unfair to those in the hand for a third party to be chatting about the action or the sudden turn of events. "Oooh - he hit his flush draw". "I bet he's got KK!", "there's the gutshot!", "Ah man, I just mucked the nuts!" blah, blah, blah

It is really a much more serious breach of ettiquette than many players believe and I really wish that players (or dealers or railbirds) would just mind their own business during the hand.

If you're heads up, do whatever you want to mess with your opponent, show him your cards, tell him you've got the nuts, hell, show him your nuts if that works for you... I don't care. But if it's a multiway pot, or if you're not in the hand, it's really inapropriate to say anything while the hand is in progress.

[toots]

I didn't say that I do discuss the elephant, 'cause I do know that everyone will just get upset and holler at me if I do.

I just think it's silly to get that worked up about it. And yeah, if the noob doesn't notice something - boy nothing ruins your day more than someone levelling the playing field, eh?

No, I don't talk about it, but I don't mind when people do.

Like I said, the guy blathering could just as easily be a source of bad advice as any.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Once, a dealer at the Borg (Darcy) peeked at my cards. I had open-raised with KQs and everyone folded. I said something to the effect of, "Good, my hand wasn't that good anyway." After she looked at my cards, I said, "They weren't _that_ bad, were they?" She said, "Nah, they were all right."

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a dealer do something similar at Foxwoods. I raised with AK, and got a few callers. The flop was rainbow rags, I bet out, and everyone folded. I go to muck the hand, and the dealer says something like "Come on, aren't you going to show it?" I said nothing and tossed them face down towards the muck. The dealer says "OK I'll look at them" and takes a peek. He didn't say anything after that, I guess they weren't what he was expecting. I didn't really care to have much undue attention drawn to that hand, even though it was never shown to the other players.

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because YOU see an elephant on the table, doesn't mean that everyone can see it. Oh, they'll see it after you bring it up, but before then it may be transparent,

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of thing happens online all the time as well. It is definately helpful. I use 'that guy' who is be-littling other people to my advantage. You know 'that guy'.. the one that gives someone [censored] for playing T6off. The only reason I keep my chat open while 4 or 8 tabling is so I can catch other people identifying the fish. Once that happens I add notes on both parties!

And to get back on target, I used to be a poker dealer. From my point of view, the dealer discussing theory and strategy is out of line. From what you describe, I feel he derserves some sort of disciplinary action, so tell the floor sup!

Outs

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
And yeah, if the noob doesn't notice something - boy nothing ruins your day more than someone levelling the playing field, eh?


[/ QUOTE ]

funny how you were being sarcastic, but you hit the nail on the head! poker is a game of an unlevel playing field. why would you want it to be level? if you want a level playing field go play dice with someone.

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]

poker is a game of an unlevel playing field. why would you want it to be level?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I'm not a bad sport.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker is a game of an unlevel playing field. why would you want it to be level?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I'm not a bad sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

The playing field is level, unless someone is cheating. Using an advantage in skill does not make one a bad sport; in fact, it's the whole point of competition.

[toots]

If you're a good player, and have more skill than your opponent, then you will regardless of someone running off at the mouth. Like I said, the jabbery person could just as easily be spewing nonsense as gospel.

Getting upset about it is just looking for an excuse to complain.

Besides, if someone does have constructive feedback for the inferior player, it just makes the game less boring. I mean, a good sport likes a challenge, rather than a mindless win.

[MicroBob]

i've had a couple of semi-similar instances online.

i'm betting hard and someone NOT in the hand types in the chat-box....'nut-flush anybody??' or 'looks like SOMEONE has the full-house' or even 'i bet this he's got AA'.
or 'i mucked a 9' just as the 3rd 9 comes on the board which can very easily affect the betting.

sometimes it's just idiotic nonsense that has no influence....
but other times it was pretty obvious that i probably did have a full-house and it sure looked the comments in the chat-box helped the fish to slow-down.

[Easy E]

so they can "help" all of my opponents out

By the way, Mason and David and gang, how are those casino royalties working out for ya?

[Sundevils21]

What about dealers that declare the board. Not like "turn is the 5of diamonds" but like, " turn is the 5of diamonds, three diamonds on board." Or "6of clubs on the river pairs the board". I've only played poker at a casino once and one dealer announced the board like this, the others didn't.

[nolanfan34]

I don't like that either. If people can't read the board, that's their problem.

Dealers should be like the one on Party. That guy never says a word! Of course he also deals without moving his arms either...strange.

[zuluking]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[daryn]

it's not about being a bad sport. i play poker for money. now if i'm at a table where everyone else is worse than me, i should be making money. now if someone comes to the table and starts trying to educate the players, telling them not to make dumb bets or adjusting their preflop strategy, that person is COSTING ME MONEY. that's the bottom line, and i have every right to be pissed.

[toots]

Oh, poor you.

Happily stealing candy from babies until some other adult comes along and intervenes.

We can always argue over what makes someone a good or bad sport, but someone who not only insists on playing against people who are seriously outmatched, but objects when anyone might be pointing out the mismatch - that's certainly not very sportsmanlike.

So like, you're sitting there saying "Give me your money," and he says "Ok," and you say "give me your money" and he says "Ok" and someone else comes along and says "are you sure you want to do that?" and you get upset.

Not much of a challenge, even a bit boring, and certainly no sport involved.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure two-pair can never be the rock solid nuts before the hands are shown...

[/ QUOTE ]

Shsh! I make a lot of money from people who seem to think two pair is the nuts, even though there's 3 of a suit and an open-ended 4-straight on the board.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Shsh! I make a lot of money from people who seem to think two pair is the nuts, even though there's 3 of a suit and an open-ended 4-straight on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Your secret is safe with me. Pretty sure these people aren't reading these boards. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SossMan]

I got shafted pretty good once by a stupid dealer. I was betting top 2 pair the whole way, and it gets to the river and the fourth diamond shows up on board. There are two other opponents, I'm first to act, so I check, and it gets checked around. As I show my top 2, the dealer says "show me a diamond"...The guy on the button who had actually tossed his cards towards the muck (but they didn't touch the muck, and the dealer hadn't touched them yet) in front of him, gets startled, grabs his cards and looks at them....he had an ace w/ a 3 of diamonds kicker, and goes "thanks" to the dealer. I racked up, told the floor, and left.

[SinCityGuy]

Hitting 12 against a dealer 3 (another correct basic strategy play) draws the same criticism from the dealers and the ploppies.

[Joe826]

Don't be a hypocrit, you get your money from noobs who don't know what they're doing also. Anyways, If the dealer wants to talk about how QT is the best possible hand that's totally fine with me, if he starts discussing strategy that would disadvantage me then that's when I get mad, like in your case nolan where he was tellin the guy to bet the two pair.

[Prof. Booty]

A poker room just opened up in a nearby casino about a week ago, so the dealers and floor are a little inexperienced.

But anyway, recently my friend and I went and sat a newly opened table. For the first few orbits we were both getting bad cards (and playing a bit tight) so we were both folding a lot. The dealer kept making comments about us folding so much, basically telling the other players we were being tight (not in those words, but making it clear) Later on, when we would open raise we weren't getting any action (not helped by the dealer's comments that we were finally playing a hand).

If I play tight, and people notice, good for them. But I don't need the dealer helping them realize this. It was low limit and the dealer was pretty nice so I didn't mind, but I think identifying a player's style is worse than talking about strategy.