Party Poker tournament observation?(a little lengthy)

[Colby818]

Hey guys, this is my first post, so go easy on me. I didn't think to save the hand play to post here, but I'm really posing a general observation. Over the last week or so I've had problems getting big hands(AA, KK, QQ, AKs) cracked by limpers with low end stuff. Has anyone noticed this? Or have I just run into some bad luck.

Yesterday in the $250k guarenteed, I had AKs and was in a middle position. I raised to 4BB.(I forget what stage the blinds were at, but it was early - I'd say within the first 3 rounds. I was slightly up over my starting amount, but this was the first real good hand I had seen). I got a call from a late position and another from the big blind.

The flop came up 4-5-K(rainbow). I bet the pot, late position folded and big blind called. At this point, I figure that big blind is either on a straight draw or has K with a low card and just doesn't want me to bluff the pot.

The turn threw a 10 and I went all in. I figured that this wouldn't complete a straight and I needed to get the straight out of the pot. Big blind called.

Big Blind ended up taking down the pot and putting me out with 2 pair 4's and 5's.

Sorry for not having the hand history to post, but again I'm more concerned with the theory than the specific examples. Do I just need to bet larger pre-flop to get the bottom feeders out? I'm always leery of doing that in tourney(at least with something like AKs, AQs or KQs) because if I don't improve I'm folding and throwing away a good portion of my stack.

Any ideas/suggestions?

[BettnTibetn]

if you bet 4 BB and 45 called you ...u just got screwed by a moron

[nolanfan34]

I think unfortunately there's not a lot you can do there. In the early rounds, a 4 or 5 times the BB raise just isn't enough to knock out people who want to play those hands. In this case you hit your flop, and it's hard to put someone on a 45o there.

It's a tough beat to take, but I think your play is still correct.

[DogFace]

I think you played it well. You can't expect someone to stick around with 45. What you have to be more worried about is trips, but obviously that wasn't what he had in this case.

[Beavis68]

I like to over bet in the early stages, you have to bet enough of your stack to make people think - but with AK, I dont want to get over committed either. You probably played this right for AK. But- always expect the worst.

It was pretty dump of that guy to just call with his bottom two pair, would have been nice if an A K or a 10 had hit the river, that always teaches them.

[davidross]

disclaimer..I suck at tournaments.

I just hate seeing people go bust on 1 pair hands, especially early in the tournament. When my flop bet gets called the alarm bells would start going off. Pushing all in you clearly want a fold, because he's unlikely to call with anything you can beat. I'd be more afraid of 44 or 55 here. If there was no flush draw I might check this down, or make a smaller turn bet and check the river. Maybe you make a little less when your good, but a bad player might end up giving you his chips anyway.

[Colby818]

David, I like your thoughts here. I try to play somewhat risk adverse, and I really like to hit the sledge hammer when I do have cards, but as you said, I only had a pair. I have a close friend who I play with B&M and home tourney's and I get on his case for always trying to win the whole tourney on one hand, perhaps I need to swallow my own medicine here.

I'm going to start posting some of my outs in here, maybe we can get to the bottom of some of these plays and determine if I've got leaks or just a lot of bad luck.

[eMarkM]

You can try and throw in a larger raise preflop, the problem is with Party tourneys, the limpers always call. So normally I just stick to the typical pot sized raise. Honestly, there's sometimes I will just limp here and try and keep the pot small because I know I'm not going to get anyone to fold no matter how big a raise I put in. And it's a nice deceptive move anyway, no one puts you on AK when you do that. Of course, you could just move-in, then they probably fold, but being an all-in donkey like this isn't my style. If the blinds were large enough and your chips were down a bit, all-in might have been best.

I am very careful about going all-in early in tourneys unless I KNOW I have the best hand. I don't make crazy all-ins with draws or 2nd pair, not in your usual online tourney with early mulitway pots, you're getting called. Not even with TPTK unless against a known maniac. It's the main reason I attribute to lasting so long in tourneys. Sometimes I get bluffed off best hand. But too often whenever I have committed everything to TPTK early I'm making an early exit to 2 pair or better. When you hit a set, you pretty much know you have the best hand and can try to get all-in, but with TPTK, I try to control the size of the pot so I'm not forced to push in on a tenous hand.

Here, you have position, so use it. You potted it on the flop, I usually will bet a bit less than the pot as it has the same effect of denying pot odds to draws, but limiting losses if you're beat. When he calls you have to start getting worried or are delighted. I'm not worried about 54, but 44 or 55 for a set, but he could have KJ. So on the turn I would probably still bet, but I wouldn't go all-in. You don't give stack sizes or blind sizes, so maybe you had no choice, I don't know. I'm not worried about a draw, he likely called you with something.

I may even check behind on the turn. Yeah, it looks weak, but it saves money when you're beat and against aggressive opponents you can induce a bluff on the river. You have to check back good hands sometimes anyways or opponents always know you have something when you bet and have nothing when you check. Or make a smaller bet and if he comes over the top of you, you can usually lay it down. You can usually put a guy on a hand that beats you when he calls a big flop bet and then shows aggression with a C/R on the turn. Especailly if you've seen him make a lot of limp/flop/folds on previous hands. They got you beat and you can make a TPTK laydown. But it's really a judgement call, anything can happen on Party. Guy could c/r with bottom pair, I've seen it.

Anyway, if he just calls on the turn then when the river comes and he checks to you, you can just check behind. Kinda doubtful he'd play it that passively, but I've seen worse plays early in Party tourneys. I usually won't set a guy in on the river with TPTK unless I've seen him making weak calls before. I miss a value bet here and there, but save chips when I'm beat.

For the most part, the way I combat these loose limpers is to try and keep the pot small so when you are against someone who is impossible to read and could have absolutely anything, you can keep your loses to a minimum when they hit their junk. It may seem weak to play this way, but I like to save the pot building for when I know I got em by the balls.

[nolanfan34]

You talk about this style of play being weak...but given your results over the last year I'm not going to argue! I think I need to start doing this a little more, instead of relying on TPTK so often early in tournaments.

Good discussion, I always struggle with how to play hands like AK early in tournaments when people will call most raises PF.

[daveymck]

In this situation you are saying you would bet, but how much?

This is the type of hand I think I play badly, I have stabbed at the pot he has still come along, the turn isnt scary so again look to bet out too little and they come over the top, too much and you are in trouble anyway. Also you dont really want to give the draws a cheap look.