30/60: a turn for the worse

[Nate tha' Great]

30/60 Party. Game is pretty tight but has enough soft spots to make it worthwhile.

I'm on the BB with T /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif. A player open-raises in LP (two off the Button). So far as I know, this player is solid; he hasn't done anything funny during the couple of orbits he's been at the table. But the game is playing tight enough that people are taking stabs at the blinds here and there.

It's folded around to me and I 3-bet. I used to call more often in these spots with a middie pocket pair, but now I've come to believe that the postflop plays out better with a 3-bet ... anyway that's what I do and he just calls.

Flop is 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I bet and he calls.

There are 4 BB in the pot plus the small blind's change.

Turn is the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

What's my play?

[DocHollyday]

Nate,

I just tell you how I'd played your cards, I have no idea if that is cool, but as reference I play 30/60live often, not that it makes me more accurate though:

Preflop: Why 3betting? No one else is in the pot and you don't have position. Just call and take a look at the flop. If it comes like that you can put way more pressure on him, by check-raising the flop etc.

However, you threebet the preflop and now there's a turned ace with three diamonds. Your turn, and I say, fire another barrel and hope he has something like KQs (not diamonds). I am sure if he has no diamond he's likely to drop a couple of hands, like JJ,QQ,KQ. Even if he has AK and the K is no diamond he may drop the hand. I don't think he has a flush already, otherwise he mostly would have raised you on the flop for a freecard.

However, you never know, but you definitly should not wimp out yet. If you get raised you should fold.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate,

I just tell you how I'd played your cards, I have no idea if that is cool, but as reference I play 30/60live often, not that it makes me more accurate though:

Preflop: Why 3betting? No one else is in the pot and you don't have position. Just call and take a look at the flop. If it comes like that you can put way more pressure on him, by check-raising the flop etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why I like to 3-bet before the flop is so that I don't make an incorrect fold. For example, suppose that he opened with AJ and the flop comes KQx, or he opened with KQ and the flop comes AJx, or he opened with 88 and you get either of those boards. It's very difficult for me to call a bet on a board like that, even though I'm ahead. Coversely, I may sometimes cause him to make an incorrect fold if the board comes right. I also get some information about the strength of his hand based on whether he caps or not.

[ QUOTE ]
However, you threebet the preflop and now there's a turned ace with three diamonds. Your turn, and I say, fire another barrel and hope he has something like KQs (not diamonds). I am sure if he has no diamond he's likely to drop a couple of hands, like JJ,QQ,KQ. Even if he has AK and the K is no diamond he may drop the hand. I don't think he has a flush already, otherwise he mostly would have raised you on the flop for a freecard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think betting out and folding to a raise is exactly the right play. The pot is too big to check-fold and too small to worry about having to call down a semi-bluff raise with a singleton diamond.

Now, I didn't play it that way in the actual hand, but that's because I'm an idiot.

[CrackerZack]

Bet and fold to a raise.

With the line you took, that card should win you the pot. If you had called and check-raised the flop, that card may have lost you the pot. interesting.

[DocHollyday]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason why I like to 3-bet before the flop is so that I don't make an incorrect fold. For example, suppose that he opened with AJ and the flop comes KQx, or he opened with KQ and the flop comes AJx, or he opened with 88 and you get either of those boards. It's very difficult for me to call a bet on a board like that, even though I'm ahead. Coversely, I may sometimes cause him to make an incorrect fold if the board comes right. I also get some information about the strength of his hand based on whether he caps or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thinking. I didn't consider that. So I guess I also learned something! Thanx /images/graemlins/wink.gif

PS: Keep cool, it's easier to give the correct (or incorrect) advise after reading a post and making his mind up about it. But in this online clicking war it is sometimes hard to keep straight. I for example think I play much worse online, than live!

[sweetzer]

Could you go a little further on the "incorrect fold" idea. Do you mean that 3 betting preflop gives you the odds to call anything on the flop? My idea of 3 betting here would be to establish control and then lead bet the flop irregardless of its content.

[cwl]

whats your plan on the river if your opponent calls your turn bet?

if the river is:
1) a blank
2) non diamond broadway
3) a diamond

how would you play differently if you had the T of diamonds?

[Steve Giufre]

I bet and fold to a raise. If I had the 10 of dimonds, I would check call.

[SinCityGuy]

I like the 3-bet before the flop. It defines the strength of your hand and allows you to take control. If an overcard flops, you're in much better shape to win the pot than if you just called the preflop raise.

On the turn, I would lead out. If you get raised, you can safely fold your hand.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you go a little further on the "incorrect fold" idea. Do you mean that 3 betting preflop gives you the odds to call anything on the flop? My idea of 3 betting here would be to establish control and then lead bet the flop irregardless of its content.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about 3betting to put more money in the pot as well as establish control and make later street play easier.

secondly, irregardless is my favorite least favorite word in the english language...kinda like inflammable. "inflammable means flammable?? what a country /images/graemlins/crazy.gif" (dr. nick)

-Barron

[Barry]

Least favorite word? Irregardless is not even a word.

It's regardless or irrespective.

[DcifrThs]

lol, is that so barry?

i never knew it wasn't a word just a very poorly stated one...but now i know and since i don't use it anyway that only changes my entertainment i get from hearing other people use a word i now know isn't even a word...kinda crumtastic don't you think /images/graemlins/wink.gif

-Barron

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Nate:

You bet. You do not want to give a free card to a hand that could easily contain overcards to your pair but does not contain an ace.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you go a little further on the "incorrect fold" idea. Do you mean that 3 betting preflop gives you the odds to call anything on the flop? My idea of 3 betting here would be to establish control and then lead bet the flop irregardless of its content.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm talking more about establishing control of the hand than manipulating odds ... picking up those pots when the board is not particularly favorable to either one of our hands.

[J.A.Sucker]

I don't think that folding is as safe as you think if raised on the turn.

[SinCityGuy]

Point taken.

Against a typical opponent, it's probably best to fold. Against an FPS player, I'd be more inclined to call him down.

[asymmetrical]

Irregardless, some information. (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irregardless&x=15&y= 15)

I had a client who would use this word at least once a phone conversation...it drove me insane.

[ZeeJustin]

Bet and fold to a raise, but you know that already.

I'm surprised that people are advocating a call preflop. I 3 bet in your spot with 88. Am I thinking too aggressively here?

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised that people are advocating a call preflop. I 3 bet in your spot with 88. Am I thinking too aggressively here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, just differently.

If you 3-bet, will you win it with a flop bet if he misses? if you call, will you win it with a check-raise if he misses? Its a bit player dependent and opponent dependent. Opponent dependent should be driving the decision but if you have no knowledge of which would have more effect on your opponent, then its more personal preference.