Party SNGs still tearing me apart

[adam61]

Quick recap of what I've been up to. I played about 300 NL $10+1 SNGs at party finished with a -3% ROI and a dead bankroll. Was frustrated and angry and ready to give it up, but AleoMagus a friend of mine told me to throw another couple hundred in and give stars $5.50 a try. This way if I was a losing player I would get more hours of play per dollar, and the tournaments were longer allowing me more time to just learn, read people etc, essentially get better at poker and eventually move back to party. Well I had good success at stars. I played 200 at the $5.50 level and finished with 28% ROI. Moved up to the $10+1 level at stars and played 100 tournaments with a 21% ROI. The tournaments were getting longer and tougher and I decided for the long term I was really gonna need to move back to party, get the skeleton out of my closet and finally learn to beat these. I had used AleoMagus' strategy for SNGs at Party and used it as a guide at stars but learned to bluff a little, steal the blinds a little and just flesh out some skill. One of the major differences between stars and party for me was that I was NEVER steaming at stars, even when I had bad streaks I knew it was my bad play or there was nothing I could do. Even when I took a beat I didn't blame my opponent. On party I literally took 10 times the beats and at certain points I would steam hard and take the day off so it wouldn't effect my play. So anyway, I went back to party, and I've only played 40 tournaments so far but I wanted your comment on some hands. Currently my ROI is -15%. If I had to guess it's gonna settle in that -1 to -5% just like before. In essense I don't think the 300 tournaments at stars have helped me to be able to beat the party games and I'm getting frustrated again. The simple answer is to move back to stars, but there's been several situations where I've literally been stuck in a tournament when I needed to do something else that came up. The fact the tournaments are 100 minutes long is a liability, also they seem to be getting appreciably tougher.

So -15% at party through 40 tourneys. People last time told me to post some hands to look for leaks but I wasn't keeping good info there. So here's how I died the last 10 tournaments I was knocked out of without making the money. Also a lot of times when I'm not dying like this I'm being blinded to death basically play a total of 2 hands all the way to a trip to 4th place. Here goes....(My hand is the first one always)

KO #1: 10th place
JJ vs 96s both all-in preflop Flop: 78T

Packing on the first hand of the tourney, always hurts. This was a questionable call and here's why I made it. The original raiser raised to 120 and got 2 callers. The original raiser is a maniac as per my notes, I was 90% sure I had him. The other 2 worried me but I decided to make the move. Exactly what I wanted to happen did, the original raiser (maniac) called with an incredibly weak hand and the 2 callers folded. I lose!

KO #2: 6th place
AKo vs AQs I raised to 275 Of my 1500 on 50/100 blinds. He raises all-in (1600), I call. Flop comes QQ7

Ouch. The player was a decent player but nothing special, I was most likely facing Tens, Jacks, Queens, AK, AQ, AJ, or a smaller pocket pair maybe. Not sure what I could have done here, maybe lay down cause I had a lot of chips, but with the party blinds no stack is safe and I don't see how I can be throwing these away.

KO #3: 4th place
AQs vs A7o Blinds 100/200 he raises to 450 I go all in 775 he calls. Flop comes 6895, and out the door I go.

Again I was short stacked with 4 to go. I felt near obligated to take this oppurtunity.

KO #4: 4th place
AQs vs AKo 150/300 blinds I was 980 I pushed from MP, BB(big stack) calls KQ4 flop and out I go.

Well finally I wasn't favored in one of these. This avoidable?

KO #5: 6th place
AJs vs 77 I raise 450 on 100/200 blinds he calls. Flop comes J73 I bet 300 he goes all in for 770 I call. Out the door I go.

Not sure here I played this well and TPTK seemed good. Not sure on this one.

KO #6: 5th place
TT vs KK MP raised to 450 on 100/200 blinds. I go all-in for 1550 he calls. 499 flop and out the door I go.

I actually think I played this well. This guy had raised 2.25 BB on about 50% of his hands. I felt like TT was probably good and just got unlucky. This was maybe avoidable, but putting down TT in the late game with nasty blinds just seems like it's gonna kill me. I might have just called here, but I woulda pushed to that flop.

KO #7: 5th place
JJ vs A3c 50/100 blinds I raise to 350 preflop. I get call from the SB. Flop comes Jc6c4. Checked to me I bet 350 he raises all-in for 1875. This was the other big stack but there's no way I can put down trips so I call, club comes and out I go.

I can't put down a set, this was just unfortunate.

KO #8: 5th place
JJ vs AKo 100/200 blinds I have 775 raise all-in he calls. Flop comes K9T I'm packin.

Again I'm pretty short stacked but not critical I felt like this was a pretty good holding here and again if I had just called I most likely would have called to a K9T flop. Jacks appear a lot in this list, not sure if that's coincidence.

KO #9: 6th place
KK vs AKo 25/50 blinds I have a big stack and sitting pretty. AKo raises to 200 gets 1 caller I raise all in 1950. The original raise(who has 2200) calls and flop comes A37 and out the door I go.

I raised all-in here because I didn't want to be outdrawn. the smaller stack that just called showed weakness, and the other big stack I felt would be very unlikely to call and risk all his chips. I felt like I played this well, weak but well.

KO #10: 4th place
KK vs AA blinds 150/300 I have 1200. I raise to 750 he raises all-in I call. Flop comes AK4 and you know the rest.

4 players left I have the second best hand in the game. I can't get out of this I don't think.

So comments everyone? There have to be mistakes all over the place here. As a general rule THESE are the hands that are costing me the most. Most of the rest of my lost chips are from blinds. I rarely bluff, rarely steal, don't get fancy, I try to play very ABC at this level, much moreso than stars. And yet I'm still losing, even against the very weak players through 350 tournaments. And my most recent 40 tournaments have been -15% (I feel it will stabilize right where the first 300 did). So if possible could you comment on my play of those hands, and what you think I should do in the longer run here?

Thanks a lot fellas.

[mackthefork]

Have you tried being less aggressive it seems like you got all your chips in before the flop an awful lot, in my opinion against the sort of players you get on Party you will achieve nothing, they will call whatever you raise if they get 2 pretty cards or lucky 72o. I play a different game to you I try to see a lot of decent hands for a flop without crippling myself.

I also find Stars SNGs much more profitable something like 40% stars 30% party ROI. No one can tell me why this is.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you tried being less aggressive it seems like you got all your chips in before the flop an awful lot, in my opinion against the sort of players you get on Party you will achieve nothing, they will call whatever you raise if they get 2 pretty cards or lucky 72o.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that line of reasoning makes any sense. If your opponents will call with an inferior hand, you want to raise as much as possible. Variance will be high, but so will profits.

As for the original poster's problems, I make a note of how I go out of every tournament, and I have a list as long or longer of dominated draw-outs.

Those will even out over time. I think it's the other tournaments that are the problem for your ROI. Why aren't you placing in those? I am assuming you've basically listed a bunch of bad beat stories, and not consecutive tournament histories.

You say you never steal? That's fatal. You must take some blinds with non-premium hands to win these things.

eastbay

[stupidsucker]

I do fairly well at SnG's so I will take a stab with my opinions. My RoI is about 35% on 10'2 and 20's at party.

[ QUOTE ]
KO #1: 10th place
JJ vs 96s both all-in preflop Flop: 78T

Packing on the first hand of the tourney, always hurts. This was a questionable call and here's why I made it. The original raiser raised to 120 and got 2 callers. The original raiser is a maniac as per my notes, I was 90% sure I had him. The other 2 worried me but I decided to make the move. Exactly what I wanted to happen did, the original raiser (maniac) called with an incredibly weak hand and the 2 callers folded. I lose!

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think pushing is a good idea here. You have him in your notes as a maniac, and someone else might too. Your worry is not him but the other two people if you push. You got the results you wanted (the other two folding), but I think in the future letting this one go early is a better idea. JJ is a lot weaker then most think. Once HU it was bad luck, but you could have saved yourself the trouble. This is a mistake I make too with JJ at times.


[ QUOTE ]
KO #2: 6th place
AKo vs AQs I raised to 275 Of my 1500 on 50/100 blinds. He raises all-in (1600), I call. Flop comes QQ7

Ouch. The player was a decent player but nothing special, I was most likely facing Tens, Jacks, Queens, AK, AQ, AJ, or a smaller pocket pair maybe. Not sure what I could have done here, maybe lay down cause I had a lot of chips, but with the party blinds no stack is safe and I don't see how I can be throwing these away.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the perfect spot to throw AK away. AK is NOT an all in calling hand. You did have the advantage once the cards were turned over, and once again hit bad luck, but you will normally be against a lot more then AQ. Once you call here you are generally not the favorite.

[ QUOTE ]
KO #3: 4th place
AQs vs A7o Blinds 100/200 he raises to 450 I go all in 775 he calls. Flop comes 6895, and out the door I go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played this ok. 775 with 1-2 blinds is rough and you did have the best of it. With a weak raise of 450 on the bubble it can be a trap or they are just too timid to put their whole stack in against the larger stacks. He will call you, but if one of the larger stacks did the same thing he would have folded. You had the best of it and lost. Bad bubble loss. not your fault imo.

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KO #4: 4th place
AQs vs AKo 150/300 blinds I was 980 I pushed from MP, BB(big stack) calls KQ4 flop and out I go.
Well finally I wasn't favored in one of these. This avoidable?

[/ QUOTE ]

you did it right. This just happens sometimes

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KO #5: 6th place
AJs vs 77 I raise 450 on 100/200 blinds he calls. Flop comes J73 I bet 300 he goes all in for 770 I call. Out the door I go.
Not sure here I played this well and TPTK seemed good. Not sure on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see several mistakes here. Where were you with this AJs?
Seems you are not short stacked here. This is an all in bet imo IF you are going to play it at all, but with 6 players its risky. Position is key. Your preflop raise was very weak. You got to all in or not bet it at all. Then your flop bet was weak as well. You would have lost anyways after the flop, but its possible he might have tossed that 77 if you pushed preflop(I doubt it). If I did the math right you have over 1400 chips here. If you are early position I might toss this away, but if you are close to the button then push.

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KO #6: 5th place
TT vs KK MP raised to 450 on 100/200 blinds. I go all-in for 1550 he calls. 499 flop and out the door I go.
I actually think I played this well. This guy had raised 2.25 BB on about 50% of his hands. I felt like TT was probably good and just got unlucky. This was maybe avoidable, but putting down TT in the late game with nasty blinds just seems like it's gonna kill me. I might have just called here, but I woulda pushed to that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it right. He just happened to have a monster this time. Some tighter players would toss this and wait to be the original better, but you had a good chance to steal his bet if he had a weaker hand. Id probably do the same.

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KO #7: 5th place
JJ vs A3c 50/100 blinds I raise to 350 preflop. I get call from the SB. Flop comes Jc6c4. Checked to me I bet 350 he raises all-in for 1875. This was the other big stack but there's no way I can put down trips so I call, club comes and out I go.
I can't put down a set, this was just unfortunate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it wrong, but the outcome would have most likely been the same. You need to push on that flop every time. No more weak bets on flopped sets. ESPECIALLY with 2 flush cards, and against a huge stack. It is possible he would have layed down his draw on an all in call.. (that would be the proper thing to do)He was right to push here though, because he may win the pot without hitting the clubs if you fold. It was a very weak bet on the flop, and it may have cost you this pot.

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KO #8: 5th place
JJ vs AKo 100/200 blinds I have 775 raise all-in he calls. Flop comes K9T I'm packin.
Again I'm pretty short stacked but not critical I felt like this was a pretty good holding here and again if I had just called I most likely would have called to a K9T flop. Jacks appear a lot in this list, not sure if that's coincidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

right play imo. even from UTG. you have a decent chance to scoop up the blinds, and the only caller you dont really want is an overpair. Good move, bad board.

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KO #9: 6th place
KK vs AKo 25/50 blinds I have a big stack and sitting pretty. AKo raises to 200 gets 1 caller I raise all in 1950. The original raise(who has 2200) calls and flop comes A37 and out the door I go.
I raised all-in here because I didn't want to be outdrawn. the smaller stack that just called showed weakness, and the other big stack I felt would be very unlikely to call and risk all his chips. I felt like I played this well, weak but well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was not a weak play. This play was perfect. You made the right choice, and he made the wrong one. It just so happened that he hit on his underdogged draw.

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KO #10: 4th place
KK vs AA blinds 150/300 I have 1200. I raise to 750 he raises all-in I call. Flop comes AK4 and you know the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have probaly pushed here preflop, wihtout getting fancy, but outcome the same. cant avoid AA Vs KK on the bubble. There is no way I am laying down KK on the bubble for anything. (unless there is a 3way all in and I am short stacked, I just might toss it and most likely make the money by not chancing running into a bad draw out or AA)

Hope this helps. Get away from those half size pot bets on the flop, and get going with all ins or pot size bets. Dont enter 3way raised pots with hands like JJ or AK, you are most likely beaten, unless you have a big ol stack then it might be worth the risk depending on who it is your up against and what the stacks are.

[fnurt]

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JJ is a lot weaker then most think. Once HU it was bad luck, but you could have saved yourself the trouble. This is a mistake I make too with JJ at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

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This is the perfect spot to throw AK away. AK is NOT an all in calling hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with this advice in the context of a Party 10+1. You see people go crazy all the time with small pairs because they "know" they are a mathematical favorite over two overcards. You will see people raising all the time with AQ, AJ, AT, A8s. You should not shy away from betting all your chips when you have a quality hand, simply because you will dominate so many of your opponents.

The beauty of SNGs is that you can truly play for the long run; even if you take a bad beat, or the maniac turns out to have AA this time, you can get right back into the action. From the looks of things you have been doing a pretty good job of getting your money in with the best of it; keep it up and your results rate to improve.

[BettnTibetn]

who cares about party poker if you aren't running well in the tournaments. Stay with pokerstars since you are making money there.

[mackthefork]

I may not have made that point very well, what i meant was if the poster is a reasonable player he stands a much better chance of beating these 10+1 sng's on Party by trying to outplay these people than he does by trying to outluck them. I think the best way to beat these people is to try to see a flop for a big enough bet to get rid of some of the crap, say 50-150 then go in or call as an 80-90% favourite, or milk it a bit.

I've done all sorts of daft things in these tournaments when i was real raw, much worse than those ten, but my way works for me at the moment.

Regards ML

[fnurt]

The thing is that with a premium hand, the only time you can be confident of being ahead is before the flop. Letting the flop come out doesn't give you any additional information, you already knew AA was a good hand. What you don't know is whether you are an "80-90% favorite" as you shove the rest of your chips in, or if you are already behind to some cheesy 2 pair hand.

Now I agree that if you make a moderate raise like 150 before the flop, people shouldn't call with bad hands. But sometimes they will, and they will take the rest of your chips when they get lucky on the flop. What I am getting at is, why settle for charging them 150 to see the flop, why not make them pay the max?

[stupidsucker]

Ill stick to my Guns, AK is NOT a hand worth calling an all in bet, especially if more then 2 people are in the pot. All they need is 22 to have you beat already. chances are one has a pair and the other has at least an ace or a king as well... making you an even worse mathmatical favorite. Why risk all your chips on what know with near certainty is going to be a 50/50 race.

SnG strategy is survivial till the bubble with enough chips to make a stand. You dont need to bowl over your opponents to put you in position to take first.

I assure you, if you make all in calls with AK all the time you will not make much money(if any at all)in party SnGs..

[mackthefork]

I take your point but i stick by my statements, these guys are bad enough to call with middle pair or top pair with weak kicker. I wasn't really meaning AA or KK when i said this though, but AK and AQ aren't massively ahead of anything, when i get these hands early on i make them pay but i want to see the flop for a reasonable price, and then milk them on if i hit something (or sometimes not). Just the way i prefer it.

Regards ML

[mackthefork]

You must play them exactly the way i do then, couldn't agree more.

Regards ML

[fnurt]

I don't know where you are finding these tables at Party where people never raise with AQ, AJ, or suited ace-anything, but you can make a lot of money by punishing hands like that.

[adam61]

thanks for the advice so far. And these weren't *bad beat* stories these were the last 10 knockouts, none were added from earlier tournaments none were taken out cause I did something REALLY stupid. These are just a snapshot of how I lost my last 10.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Other than the hand you flopped 3 Jacks, I didn't see any big errors on your part, and even that wasn't horrible.

This leads me to conclude that either your sample is too small and your results will improve, or you have a leak somewhere else.

Let's look at your stack sizes from when you went out in 4th or 5th...
775, 980, 770, 1550, 775, 1200

With 5 people, the average stack will be 1600. You didn't have that much in any example where you made it to the bubble (4th or 5th place). It's hard to steal blinds with 775 when the blinds are 100/200.

Once you are shortstacked with high blinds, even perfect play may not save you.

You need to look at how you got shortstacked in the first place. You always seem to go out with a very good hand....and that leads me to believe that you are waiting for very good hands. That's fine to a point, but you cannot let yourself get down to 775 and expect AK to save you.

Of course, I can't say exactly how to win a lot of chips, but you may want to look playing more aggressively sooner rather than later.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I'm a winning 10+1 NLHE SNG player also. Let me echo what has been said yet disagree slightly.

You should almost never be reraising or getting it all in if its raised ahead of you unless you hold aa/kk. Not because AK is weak or the other guy could be doing it with AQ or worse, but because you can only LOSE the SnG when its 6 handed.

Do not play marginal hands till you have to. There are a good 40-50 hands before you can actually win the SnG or everyone else is getting deperate so marginal calls are ok.

Do change your raising standards once you get to 4-5 handed.

Do NOT call raises when it gets down to 4-5 handed. Your AKs maybe the best hand, but how are you going to play it if the flop doesn't hit you? Your making a bet that will cost you the whole tournament with no real gain. Why be the one to make the decision? Raise or Fold.

Pushing in over the top preflop will always get called when its 4 handed and you will almost always be destined for a show down. So pick your hands very carefully. Don't fall into the classic wishfull thinking trap. Your 44 is never really ahead unless the other guy is an idiot and it rarely improves. Your AQ is likely to dominate their hand and if it doesnt, it is more likely to improve. Your A7 is almost always dominated and if it isn't your only 60:40 don't be calling raises or all ins with weak aces.

You need to change your raising standards when it gets short handed you need to get lose preflop and tight post flop because if you get called post flop your going to have to see a showdown.

Finally, the most important skill is player reading. You need to learn who is a muppet, who is a rock, and who is skillfull all before you get to the bubble. If you get to the bubble and your still playing the cards your going to have to hit some big hands to win.

This is likely why you win at Pokerstars, but not at Party. You are making marginal bets to early and at party they call anyways, at pokerstars they are more likely to fold due to them being a lot tighter. You are not adjusting your game to each player in the hand. There are people who I will fold my TPTK hands when they raise me back and others I will push in over the top of them.

Let me repeat. The play at Party SnG 10+1 is loose, so you should focus on getting down to 5 before you start taking chances if you have a healthy stack. The will be taking each other out and cripling themselves. The SnG is never won before the bubble, so focus on maintaing a healthy stack as it only takes 1-2 hands to win or lose the SnG.

MarkV.