generic problem...KK in bad position and A flops...

[Garland]

Location: Lucky Chances
Stakes: $9/$18
Players: Loose and not very good players.

I've been having some bad luck lately with AA, KK being cracked a couple of times before this hand. I made some good lay downs up to that point, but the bottom line is, I was unlucky on 3 or 4 occasions. I don't know if it has any bearing to how I played this, but who knows?

I'm in BB with K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. There's a limper, who is a poor player, button who is also poor and a loose raiser raises. I 3-bet and they both call.

Flop comes:

Axx rainbow. Great.

I bet, they both call.

Turn: x

I bet, MP folds, button calls.

River: Q

I check, button bets, I call. He shows me A9o.

At this point I should have taken inventory. The last time this situation arised against a different opponent (who had a big pocket pair) who 3-bet this particular loose button player. An A appeared on the river, the preflop 3-better checked and loose button also checked. I could have folded and saved some money on the river. Unfortunately, he's passive, and he would call with any pocket pair down the river.

How do you deal with this generic situation?

Garland

[steveyz]

If you were gonna call a river bet, might as well as bet here, unless you think that he was on a draw that missed and that your opponent would bluff at it. By betting, you get an extra bet the times that he has a smaller pocket pair and would have checked through. You don't really have to worry about a raise here either.

However, given that your opponent is loose passive, it's doubtful here he'd bet without an ace, so maybe a check-fold is an ok play.

[elysium]

hi gar
this is not a basic type situation here gar. it's real hard to see but, this hand starts out one way and winds up in another type situation than it started as.

if you'll notice, as stated in an earlier thread, initially here you should see that with KK against AXX flop, you are looking to get the weak A to fold. this is true whether there is 1 or 2 opponents in there. so you should quickly see that the button will bet if checked to. so on the flop, you should check unless there are very compelling reasons not to, such as having established an image, for the moment anyway, of being the type player who bets out with strong made hands. the button argues against attempting this bet out to fold type play. so, the conditions would rarely even be present to expect to be able to bet-out and pick up the pot. but the button is great for a check-raise to fold out the MP. if the MP bets and the button raises, a check-raise to the third power might work. that's how to win this and when to win it; on the flop with strong raises. if, the action is check, bet, and then call, you can consider folding because you can't be the force at the table that your opponents need to contend with, this one hand anyway.

so that's what is happening initially. you blunder the flop, and find yourself shuttled along into the turn. you don't know where you are. what happens now?....oh no.

you bet. well, gar it's mangled anyway. betting here doesn't matter one way or the other. but now look! wow. the MP sure is a lousy player gar. he folds! that's o.k. you were looking to take a swing at the button, and the MP got in the way, and pow! well that's very fortunate. now the hand can be slow-played by you. if the button raises, you call, and no matter what, you can check-call the river. what does the button do? wild gar. the button only calls. great. and then you check-called. great. perfect there. but, do you see how you didn't know what to do? and of course you're thinking 'slow-play? there's no slow-play here. slow-play?'.

all of this is going on though. nothing basic or simple, and a slight variation here or there, and we've got a radically different situation with the same exact cards and opponents. here gar, the part that you think was basic is fairly complex, and the part that you are having doubts about having played it the way you did, well, that was played like a seasoned pro, perfect.

when you play a hand perfectly like you did on the turn and river, but don't realize it gar, that is a relative error. it is tantamount to playing it poorly and thinking that you played it well. this is why a posters comments are often as meaningful as the hand that is posted, moreso actually. the poster usually doesn't realize that his comments have significant weight nd often are more revealing than the post. and more truthful, even when the commentary is 95% lies. the 5% that is true in a post is usually found somewhere in the commentary. you need to be aware of this because in poker, 95% of your opponents commentary will not necessarily be offered to enlighten you about his intentions. but 5% of it will. and you need to see the 5%.

it will take some time before you click gar. you are looking at some good sized losses in the near term in these higher limits. the 9-18 or whatever it is can put a nasty 20 to 40 thousand dollar crimp in your wallet, with no trouble.

notice also that every single one of my threads on your hands posted has uncovered voluminous errors. that's because i'm trying to save you money. you will lose in the lower limit games like everyone just starting out. but you will lose less. you are rushing as though you are late for your 20 to 40 thousand dollar loss.

never be on time to lose money gar.

[SinCityGuy]

Elysium,

You're not going to move these bad players off of their weak aces. The whole reason they play them in the first place is to catch an ace on the flop (or the turn, or the river). In the long run, when an ace flops, you beat these types of bad players with your AK's and your AQ's, not your KK's. Once the ace flops, they're married to their hand until the bitter end.

[Steve Giufre]

"Flop comes Axx rainbow, I bet they both call."

End of story, the hand should be over right there. Elysium can give you an example of an advanced play that may work at times in a bigger game with oppenents who are willing to lay down a hand. But, this one is simple. You 3 bet preflop out of the BB, you are supposed to have a monster. Ace, blank, blank, showed up, you bet and they both called you anyway. At least one of them has an ace, and the odds of them giving it up is slim. On the river, I can't see your oppenent betting a worse hand, although I would have check folded the turn and moved on.

[Garland]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your comments.

I believe with only 2 opponents, the odds are still be in my favor of them not having an A. Now if there were 4 or more opponents, I might be tempted to just check/fold KK when Axx flops. The problem is, with over 10 small bets in the pot due to my preflop 3-bet they are likely going to call my flop bet with anything in hopes of either getting a draw on the turn or spiking a set. It's a rarity in my $9/$18 game that a single small flop bet into a big pot will cause anyone to fold. I believe it's the turn where if any opponent called is when I should pack up my tent and fold.

Garland

[steveyz]

I'd have to agree. I see plenty of 15/30 player chase with middle or bottom pair all the way on a A rag rag flop in a raised pot. Giving up on the turn is giving up too much imho.