Went too crazy after reading Ed?

[ThePimpulator]

Did I over play my top pair now?


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 21.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 21.25 BB, between BB, UTG and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG (21.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows Js Jc (two pair, jacks and fives).
UTG shows 5h 7s (three of a kind, fives).
Hero shows Kh Qc (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: UTG wins 21.25 BB. </font>


My thinking was that UTG was unlikely to be in with a five and when he only called my 3bet on the turn I believed it even more. But I guess he did that to make me fall for a check raise.

I take it I should have at least saved the final bet given I had been raising all the way and he still pulled the check raise at the end.

Anyone care to comment on anything?

Thanks,

ThePimpulator.

[Greg J]

jesus christ!

That guy was UTG and he played THAT hand. That tells me that maybe i AM ready to move up!!

I really cant fault your play here too much, aside from saying maybe you could have saved a few bets by just calling. he could not have had pocket fives since he didnt bet the flop. the most deceiving hand is complete garbage i guess.

[HajiShirazu]

My only comment is that you can't assume somebody doesn't have a low card in their hand in these games.

[sfer]

UTG came alive when the board paired 5s. Occum's razor suggests that he's got a 5.

[Dieter01]

I just wanted to extend my sympaties... For I have to been screwed by the Ed Miller Post, hehe!

There is no doubt what he is saying is true though. We just need to take his advice with some sound judgement...

[bernie]

i generally raise preflop in this situation.

good flop play.

turn...

BB's an idiot for even coming out betting again, much less calling the 3 bet. Can he really think his JJ is good here. This is how NOT to play JJ.

UTG just 'woke up' and raised. usually a move done with at least trips/sets. If this is a typical type table, and UTG isnt really maniacal, this is a fold here.

Not sure why you bet the river after UTG just pulled the turn move out with no real turn draw or anything to use as a semibluff.

b

[MicroBob]

agreed....you have to pay attention to what's happening here...UTG is clearly indicating that he may have a 5.

it's possible he had A5s or 5x-garbage...whatever. the raise could also indicate slow-played trip 4's that filled-up.

he could still have 55 for all you know...the fact that he didnt do anything on the flop really doesnt mean he doesnt have that. a lot of people slow-play their trips.


regardless, his raise possibly means something and it's at this point you have to become flexible regarding your ideas of what he might have.

i'm not sure i'm letting KQ go here.....but i don't re-raise the turn since either one of them might have a 5. since they both checked to you on the river i think that betting out is okay, but he might not have tried the C/R move if you hadn't re-raised on the turn. your re-raise gave him a good indication that a C/R would work here.


the moral here (i think) is that if someone shows aggressiveness after the board pairs you probably need to slow-down with your top-pair and consider the possibility that you are in trouble.



will be interested in other comments on this hand also.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
but i don't re-raise the turn since either one of them might have a 5. since they both checked to you on the river i think that betting out is okay, but he might not have tried the C/R move if you hadn't re-raised on the turn. your re-raise gave him a good indication that a C/R would work here.


[/ QUOTE ]

If im 3 betting the turn here, it's to try and get a free showdown. a 3 bet you're indicating at least trips on this board so he may think his kicker isnt good if it's small.

Or he may smoothcall and try for the c/r on the river /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Of course you could just call and see if the aggression continues, then fold to further aggression on the turn. What else would they be 3 betting/capping with that you can beat?

b

[JSD]

[ QUOTE ]
Occum's razor suggests that he's got a 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this anything like my Gilette Sensor?

[ThePimpulator]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to extend my sympaties... For I have to been screwed by the Ed Miller Post, hehe!

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are joking, but I just want to make it clear in case anyone thinks I'm blaming that post, I am most definitely not.

In fact now that my head has had a chance to clear I think it was a combination of many things that lead to me pushing too hard.

Two days ago I was playing winning poker two tables at a time and have been for a while comfortably. Yesterday I played three for the first time and had little difficulty and had a winning session.

I thought that one session was enough to signal I'd handle four tables OK. Well I struggled. The momment I started I was getting AK all over the place. I must have had it 4 times in the space of two mintutes, together with a couple of AQ. I certainly remember dealing with AK, AK, AQ all at the same time at one point. And I hit nothing. But some how I had got it into my head that Eds article (which I had read 5 mins previously) had been saying to play this strong post flop. Well, I was betting them all the way, dismissing raises as bluffs, lost a fortune etc. Went back to Eds post afterwards and of course it said nothing of the sort.

Anyway, that craziness messed me up for the entire session. My mind went to mush. I was sitting there trying to replay hands in my mind and figure out what was going wrong, together with still trying to play four tables for the first time *and* I was processing Eds article and trying to incorporate it.

This hand came later on. And I know I gave my thinking for how I played it, but looking back I don't know that I was thinking. I was in a daze the whole session. And on this hand I just saw my kings and went psycho.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded BS but hey, I need to tell people of my stressful night!

ThePimpulator.

[Ed Miller]

But some how I had got it into my head that Eds article (which I had read 5 mins previously) had been saying to play this strong post flop.

Which article are you talking about? Crushing microlimits?

In any event, yes, you way overplayed this hand. This is my advice:

Aggression is often important, but you should be able to articulate PRECISELY WHY a bet or raise is needed. What hands do you want to fold? What hands do you want to call? What hands do you put your opponent on? If you are behind, how many outs do you have? What do you plan to do if your opponent does not back down?

On the turn, you have two pair, kings and fives. What hands do you want to fold when you 3-bet? What hands do you want to call? What hands do you put your opponent(s) on? Etc.

[StellarWind]

Fold the turn. This is not exactly a good situation for UTG to bluff. He almost certainly has top pair beat. And who says you are ahead of BB? He could easily have AK.

It is likely to cost a fortune to get a showdown. Notice that BB may raise behind you. Even if you just call they could cap the turn and bet the river.

Whatever you read, I don't think Ed meant to suggest that you must stay in a pot with one pair while two opponents are having a raise war on the expensive streets. That is what you are risking here.

[Matty]

I'm pretty sure I would have folded pre-flop, but I'm tighter than most players.

Following HPFAP guidelines, your table seemss fairly tight based on just this one hand- and only group 3 hands can be played EP on a tight table. KQo is a 4.

Besides that, I would have definitely folded the turn.

[Matty]

n/m

[Dilbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh ... um, what's Ed?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ed is a person's name, my educated guess is that it is short for Edward. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Matty]

Could you please direct me to his famous post? I'm a poor lost newbie. I've been reading through his past posts, so now I know who he is, but I couldn't find the post everyone's raving about.

Thanks

[Dilbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you please direct me to his famous post? I'm a poor lost newbie. I've been reading through his past posts, so now I know who he is, but I couldn't find the post everyone's raving about.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Try this:
Why you guys aren't crushing these Microlimit games... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=462860&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=7&amp;o=all&amp;fpart=1#462860)

[Nemesis]

it seems some people didn't like my avatar? I'm sorry for its disappearance, until i hear an official PM she's back =)

[lowroller]

Absolutely LOVE it!!!

[LeftBack]

Don't underestimate the frequency of small cards being held at Party or other micro-limits. I've been searching my opponents hole cards in Poker Tracker, and the results are surprising.

Depending on your style, you may play A5s, 55, K5s. But the average PP micro'er plays all over the board. So far, it looks to me like there's almost a 10% chance of someone holding a 5 at showdown. Does that surprise you?

(I want to refine that percentage according to flop, but it's reasonable to assume that the percentage will rise with a 5 on the flop)

Micro-limiters are hard to read, but combined with his raise, this was no reason to dismiss the likelihood of trips.