Short Stack All-in ?

[SparkMan]

Hello, First time post.
Yesterday playing at party ,down to 5 players. 100/200 blind round. I have 410 stack remaining. UTG with A5o.
I went all-in and ran into AJ on the button. No other player was in immediate danger of going broke. Is this a reasonable play, and if not what type of hands should I go all-in with in this spot?

[xxx]

Seems OK to go in here, the problem is that you are in a desperate situation, and the other players aren't.
Actually, with 5 players left, you are close to an any two card "all-in" situation.

[TylerD]

Yes - right play. A5o is a likely better hand than the random one you will receive in the BB, which you will be pot committed to. Welcome to the boards.

[ZeeJustin]

I disagree with the two responses you already got. For me, this is a fold. A5o is a hand likely to be dominated by anyone that plays (save for the BB who is comitted with any 2), and will never actually dominate another hand (yes, I said never. I do not consider A5o to dominate A4o due to the high number of split pots.)

People assume that being all-in with a random hand in the BB is a disaster; it really is not. If you fold utg, you will get at least 4:1 pot odds which is a +EV situation for any hand.

Sklansky talks about this in TPFAP. People consider being all-in as a small stack to be a disadvantage, but it really is an advantage. He uses a stud example. Imagine being all-in for exactly the amount of the ante in an 8 person game. You are getting 7:1 odds, with more than a 1/8 chance of winning, since others will fold, but you will not. Almost always, being all-in as a very small stack will be a +EV (in terms of chips) situation.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with the two responses you already got. For me, this is a fold. A5o is a hand likely to be dominated by anyone that plays


[/ QUOTE ]

Except if it gets folded around to the BB, who is going to play on pot odds no matter what he is holding. Right? And in that case you've probably got better than even odds at doubling up. (reading again, I see that you acknowledge that. I guess it's just a matter of how likely this is to occur.)

I wonder if that scenario is enough to counterbalance the fact that, and I agree with you, that anyone else who calls here is going to either split your ace with a pair or call you with a bigger ace.

I dunno. I think it's close. Somebody less lazy than me might work some numbers on this one.

Let's see: A6 or better + 5's or better = 13.7% of hands. 4 left to act, so roughly 55% chance of getting dominated, if anyone who dominates will call. The other 45% of the time you're looking at 58% win probability against a random hand (from the BB).

Say you win 30% of the dominated situations. With those assumptions I get about -10 chips EV. Not looking so hot I guess.

I'm not sure how to approach the EV of the fold. Anyone want to take a shot?

eastbay

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how to approach the EV of the fold. Anyone want to take a shot

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a significant positive number for the reasons I've already stated.

[SparkMan]

Thanks for the input; Strictly from a playing experience standpoint I find the all-in play seems proper against 3 opponents but not 4. You just seem to be against a dominating PP or dominating Ace too often with four opponents. Also, I've had many circumstances where all 4 opponents fold on the next hand to my BB. I find that A8 or KJ seem to be a more viable hands.

[Girazze]

I agree with Zee, I would fold the hand. You still have 5 hands to see before being auto in with the BB coming back to you. I think that gives you plenty of hands to see one better than the A5o you had. If you don't see one and the blinds take you out, so be it. I'd rather let the blinds put me in automatically than for me to worry and go all-in with a sub-par hand.....especially in EP. I'll take my chances and wait for the better hand.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
You still have 5 hands to see before being auto in

[/ QUOTE ]
I suggest not only making this fold, but playing your next hand about 95% of the time. (obviously, if there's a 4 way all-in, and you have 32o, you have an easy fold, but in most scenarios, you're playing any 2).

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
If you fold utg, you will get at least 4:1 pot odds which is a +EV situation for any hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

When you are in the BB, if someone raises, and the SB folds, your 400 chips have a chance to win 1000. That is 2.5:1 pot odds.

If you raise from UTG, someone calls, and the blinds fold, your 400 has a chance to win 1100. That is 2.75:1 pot odds.

Saying that you have 5:1 pot odds in the BB is a mathematical illusion. If your entire stack was going to be posted in the BB, I suppose that would give you infinite pot odds, but that doesn't mean you're in a more advantageous situation.

[Girazze]

I assume you are saying this based on being the BB right? That should be your best chance of having the most money in the pot for your all-in.