Axo and good players.

[kenewbie]

I have a question to all the very good players that occationally honour us with a visit down at the micro forum:

Can you play Axo profitable at low limit tables?

k

[deacsoft]

Axo... no.
I can't see any reason to play this easily dominated hand. I'm not certain but am willing to wager that it has a -EV. I forsee an occasional win and a lot of losses with playing this hand. For me it's an auto muck unless the circumstances are correct to play it. Which can be quite rare.
Axs... yes.
If there are a lot of players in the pot and you're in late position it is sometimes a good idea to call and maybe even raise under the correct circumstances. The logic being that most micro-limit tables are loose and if you hit the flush you're getting paid off and winning a nice pot. Even raising for value after flopping a 4-flush is not a bad idea.

[Trix]

A7o is the lowest x I play outside the blinds and I only play this low if I can openraise it from the Button.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]


Can you play Axo profitable at low limit tables?


[/ QUOTE ]

Whats the game texture ?

[bernie]

A9o is about as low as id go. And that's from CO or later. SB id complete with any A.

The problem is in the small limits it's usually multiway. and Axo sucks multiway. Think of the type of hands that play better in the given texture of the table.

b

[kenewbie]

Ok thank you for the input guys, much appreciated.

Tosh I'm not sure what you mean by texture, typical party 0.5/1 when the maniacs are out drinking and watching football. Loose and passive with a few thight passives thrown in the mix. That sort of thing.

The reason I asked is that lately I've done a few open raises in LP/Button with Axo and it seems to be ok. I could just have had a lucky run though.

k

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
SB id complete with any A.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? I think this is a pretty bad rule of thumb at micro limits. I toss anything lower than A9 and the A9 usually goes too unless I'm in a really good mood or something.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SB id complete with any A.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? I think this is a pretty bad rule of thumb at micro limits. I toss anything lower than A9 and the A9 usually goes too unless I'm in a really good mood or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Unless 3 other calls and me I'll play any Axs but Axo I won't play unless A10o.

[sfer]

Well there are going to be two situations. Either you get a weak limper or two or half the world calls. If there's only a limper or two then it's very possible that you have the only Ace. If there are 5 limpers to you, you're being offered like 12 to 1 on your call with ginormous implied odds.

I do think completing in the SB with nearly any Ace can be profitable.

[Greg J]

i am currently rereading WLLHE, and in it jones encourages a raise in late position preflop with A10o and A9o (see esp page 47 -- second edition). Well, while i think the book is good and has improved my game, I simply cant stomach this for some reason.

maybe someone can set me straight here, but it seems to me this is a marginal call AT BEST, and is certainl,y not worthy of a raise. I have been usually folding A9o in late position, and will play A10 IF i can be pretty darn sure no one is going to raise behind me. (Safe to say I am usually folding this hand in earlier postions.) In any even I am loath to raise in this situation.

Am i being too tight? or is jones right? I'm inclined to disagree with him on this point, but if I'm wrong I certainly wont begrudge anyone correcting me.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
i am currently rereading WLLHE, and in it jones encourages a raise in late position preflop with A10o and A9o (see esp page 47 -- second edition). Well, while i think the book is good and has improved my game, I simply cant stomach this for some reason.

maybe someone can set me straight here, but it seems to me this is a marginal call AT BEST, and is certainl,y not worthy of a raise. I have been usually folding A9o in late position, and will play A10 IF i can be pretty darn sure no one is going to raise behind me. (Safe to say I am usually folding this hand in earlier postions.) In any even I am loath to raise in this situation.

Am i being too tight? or is jones right? I'm inclined to disagree with him on this point, but if I'm wrong I certainly wont begrudge anyone correcting me.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's talking about if it's folded around to you right?

[Greg J]

no he's talking about if there are four or fewer callers, So i suppose that would be at least three people folding, depending on how late your postiion is.

He actually also recomends also raising with these hands with five or more callers.

However, he does not recomend even calling these hands when the pot is raised.

Anyway -- it seems that A10o if not worth a raise in late postion, but might be worth a limp in. A9o is more marginal, and only if i am pretty sure of the 2 or 3 guys acting behind me will only call will i limp in with that. I certainly dont want to raise with it.

[Shalara]

I definitely raise here!

First, you probably have the best hand. AK, AQ, and AJ generally raise pre-flop, so your kicker is likely better than any other ace out there.

Secondly, if the flop misses you ten ways from Sunday, you can still generally see the turn for free. Sometimes a bet will take it down even if you miss. And when you do hit top pair, there are only 2 other aces out there. Not so many people like to call when someone bets with an ace on the board. This way you get your money in earlier.

However, I do not advocate merely calling. That takes away your shot at a steal if you miss. No free turn either. And if you make it, you have top pair, probably top kicker, and less money in the pot!

That's just my reasoning, but that seems to be the effect, and raising A9 & AT o in end works pretty well for me.

[Greg J]

I appreciate your explanation. it is more than jones offers in why to raise with A9o, but then his is not a book for the theoretically inclined player either, whereas I like not only to know WHAT to do, but WHY i am doing it.

The problem I have with A9o is there is no straight potential, no flush potential, if you hit a 9 it is unlikely to be the highest card on the board (and if it is it increases the liklihood of a straight that will beat you). Plus, nine is a pretty weak kicker.

(I know, i know, there is probably not a bigger kicker out there --- maybe this is my own paranioia.)

The other thing is there are 2 or 3 people left to act. Any they will reraise with AK, AQ, and maybe AJ. I know that i cant be afraid of monsters under the bed, but it seems any of those hands dominates A9 and ATo.

I understand your reasoning, and i dont want to be weak tight, but overall it really seems to me the costs outweight the benefits here.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think completing in the SB with nearly any Ace can be profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

If one has trouble dropping top pair postflop, and with postflop play in general, up the 'x' part to a bigger kicker.

Misplaying it/marrying a top pair is how you lose money in this spot.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
That takes away your shot at a steal if you miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless the micros have tightened up some, it's not often there is any stealing going on there.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless 3 other calls and me I'll play any Axs but Axo I won't play unless A10o

[/ QUOTE ]

So with only 2 other 'weak' callers you'd fold Axs? This is way too tight. Hell, i complete my sb with any 2 suited.

Gotta remember, you're only putting in 1/2 a bet here. Then you factor in the skill of the players limping.

So on a typical weak, primarily passive microtable, yes, i am completing the sb with Axo.

b

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
AK, AQ, and AJ generally raise pre-flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

No they dont. AA usually doesn't raise in the games I play.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Misplaying it/marrying a top pair is how you lose money in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you'll call with it and often fold quickly even when an A flops?

This is tough to do and probably wrong a lot of the time, tell Ed Miller NPA that you fold top pair and see what he says. /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

If you're playing it for 2 pair value then I don't think it makes sense. I also don't think folding top pair makes sense as you'll probably have odds to draw as well as possibly having the best hand. I don't see folding A6 when an Ace flops as an easy thing to do, and if you do in fact do it then why the hell did you call in the first place?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, i complete my sb with any 2 suited.


[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. Much tougher to get into big trouble doing this than playing A anything.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Axo... no.
I can't see any reason to play this easily dominated hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do... aka 3 betting you the next time you try to steal my blinds. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Even raising for value after flopping a 4-flush is not a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not raising your flush draws for value would be a bad idea.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

A couple months ago I experimented in the .5/1.00 tables by playing A9o A8o and A7o and didn't fair too badly with them. However, to do so, you must be very very good postflop and be willing to give up your hand even if an A flops.
In the long run, I doubt these hands will win with enough regularity to make it profitable. If anything, adding in these marginal hands in your arsenal will increase your variance. Sometimes you'll have large positive swings, but the long run will come back to bite you and give you swings in the negative end.

About the SB completion thing.
I dump Axo in the SB. But sometimes if I'm feeling frisky I'll complete with A5o or A4o, but never A6o. Can you tell me why?

[kenewbie]

The reason I personaly have been opening Ax with a raise in late position lately is this; I've been playing sit and gos to get a change of pace and improve my short handed game. When the game gets down to 3 players, A8o is a very decent hand. If you raise in LP/button that is exactly what you have, a 3 way hand.

The cavecat is that I dont have a thousand hands which prove a profit yet, just a small sample. But so far it looks good.

k

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I personaly have been opening Ax with a raise in late position lately is this; I've been playing sit and gos to get a change of pace and improve my short handed game. When the game gets down to 3 players, A8o is a very decent hand. If you raise in LP/button that is exactly what you have, a 3 way hand.

The cavecat is that I dont have a thousand hands which prove a profit yet, just a small sample. But so far it looks good.

k

[/ QUOTE ]

You are more than likley talking about NL. We are talking limit.

[bernie]

Reread my response and see where i said folding top pair is automatic. Part of playing it postflop is being able to read when you're likely to be beat and release it. Many times i wont be folding this for just 1 bet on the flop.

Sorry it isnt a black and white answer as to how to automatically play it postflop. It's not.

b

[Shalara]

I completely agree. Anyone can play exactly by the book and do okay here. But if you don't question why certain plays are made, then you can't improve your play, imo.

Yeah, you can get re-raised. Sometimes the blinds, sometimes the guy after you. However... the blinds are going to act before you on all subsequent rounds. So if they do re-raise you pre-flop, you'll be able to see how the flop comes out, and how everyone reacts first. The only re-raise I really fear with this hand from this position is the button, and you only make this play if you're the CO or the button anyway. So it *could* happen, but in practice, it likely won't often.

[Shalara]

I admit it doesn't happen very often at all. But the raise does give you a shot at it, which you otherwise might not have. It's not the primary reason, by any means. I merely mention it as an extra benefit of having raised it pre-flop.

[bernie]

But some tables/blinds it is easier to 'steal' by limping in since they will call a raise anyways, and stealing on the flop when checked to. Of course, this is against players who will call a raise the great percentage of the time.

b

[Brain]

I agree, I'm not a big fan of Axo either.

Answer: You can't make a straight with A6. Do I win a prize? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif