Turn decision

[Demian]

No reads that i remember. This play felt horrible from the turn, but i didn't want to fold and didn't know what else to do when the SB bets out the turn after calling the flop. How would you handle this against an average player? At UB 1/2 this usually means fairly passive.

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP calls, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 11.50 BB, between SB, BB and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by BB (11.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Jd Kh (one pair, kings).
SB shows 3s 4c (two pair, fours and threes).
BB shows Kd 8d (flush, king high).
Outcome: BB wins 11.50 BB. </font>

[naphand]

I think, mostly in this situation on this kind of table, you are beat; either flush or 2-pair. These players are too thick to try a CR when they improve, so they just bet out.

Sometimes I fold here, sometimes I call down, depending on how much I know about my opponents. With BB calling along and no read, I lean more towards calling down. If I am getting crap cards, and in a bad mood I likely fold it or raise to buy a free showdown.

[Demian]

Thx Nap. I just hated the feeling of reverting to call down mode but the thought of folding TP here to this kind of play just felt weak. If i start doing that, aren't people going to start taking cheap shots at me on the turn more often. It's cheaper than bluff check-raising after all. And this just looks ugly somehow: I raise pre, bet flop with TP, fold turn when he leads. On the other hand, since you mentioned the occasional raise to buy a free showdown, when do you think this sort of play is actually profitable? If the draw did indeed get there he either 3-bets or calls and bets out again on the river i think. Either of these would be typical. If he 3-bets i fold for the same price that i could have seen a showdown by calling. If he calls and then bets out the river, i have a tougher decision. So when are the times that you want to raise here?

[Vagos]

I think your calldown is ok, but generally when a flush hits and a player leads out, they have two pair. They're not strong enough to check-raise yet they still wanna see if their two pair is good. Wierd that the BB called down with the second nuts.
-Andy

[fyodor]

"If i start doing that, aren't people going to start taking cheap shots at me on the turn more often."

Off topic but not completely: when I think my table image is suffering (usually from a series of bad beats/questionable plays on my part) I switch tables. My thinking is that I am not going to get any more respect at the first table. People start calling me down with hands they might otherwise muck but given my holding they shouldn't. End result is they are making correct plays because they think I am weak.

I am having excellent results this way compared to previous play on my part where I would stay at the first table because I felt I was playing fine but just unlucky.

I understand that switching tables will should not switch my luck (cards) but my results ARE improving. I have to put it down to table image. Any thoughts?

[Demian]

[ QUOTE ]
I am having excellent results this way compared to previous play on my part where I would stay at the first table because I felt I was playing fine but just unlucky.

I understand that switching tables will should not switch my luck (cards) but my results ARE improving. I have to put it down to table image. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, funny that you should bring this up, but this is right in keeping with something i've been tossing about in my head for a while now. I've noticed that the vast majority of my losses usually occur at one table over any given multi-tabling session. It almost seems as if there comes a point after which i can no longer recover at a table if i have run bad there. I have often stuck it out, determined to play my game and win back what was lost, but these sometimes end up being the times when i go through my whole buy in at that table. All while simultaneously doing either well or more or less break-even at the other tables.

1st thought: something happens psychologically to affect my play. But then wouldn't it be affecting my play at the other tables as well? 2nd thought: My opponents have changed their approach with me due to my image. And it doesn't seem as if the play at that table is any better than the others generally.

So i think it must be a combination of both factors, but what i'm interested to know is how exactly is a poor table image due to taking sustained losses changing their play against me. Initially i thought, "ok, so what, they'll just call me down more, i don't mind, that usually makes me money, i'll just tighten up a bit." But now i think that the loss of respect for my raises at the tables makes me back off, out of necessity perhaps, because i no longer believe i can win a hand without a showdown. Without that chance, i lose an edge, i can't bet (or perhaps just feel i can't) unless i always have what is likely to be the best hand. It's just too expensive otherwise. But how many hands do i play before i become aware of this change? This might account in part for the extended slide once i start to lose at a table.

So maybe it is best to adopt a strategy like Kiddo has mentioned, where he tries to make a point of leaving a table after he has lost a certain number of BBs. I'd be interested to hear what others think regarding this matter.

D

[naphand]

I might raise if I was in a bad mood. Looking at the results, you might justifiable say it would be better to call down to see the SD. Probably correct. I think my raise has more to do with "well let's see what you have" and I fold to the raise and have done with the hand. Also I probably get a sense of satisfaction in getting 2-pair guy to just call my raise and check the River (even funnier if nut-flush does the same, which he probably does given his play here, and if he wants to CR the River). If I am 3-bet on this table, I think I just leave it, my chances of winning are small. I am usually multi-tabling anyway.

They might start taking shots at you on the Turn. That is if they are thinking players, and failing to CR indicates they are not. The only players who take shots at this limit are the maniacs, and they are easy to spot as they are the only player doing it. Sometimes fold, sometimes call down, bad mood.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

If I am raising to buy a free showdown, it should be when I can improve to win. I have seen players make this move with a hand like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3, that is a pair plus the nut-flush draw. I seem to recall raising my 2-pair. It's not common though, and it does look horribly like a flush play from SB. Perhaps raise here with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, this way you improve to 2nd-nut flush and can bet again, or you just check behind with TP.

[naphand]

This could be a thread on its own. The human mind has a tendency to read patterns into things when they are not there, or the wrong pattern entirely. This is where analysis and experience come into play.

I have often kicked myself for not leaving a table sooner, as my SH record shows a very high % of winning sessions, and a few really bad ones where I just could not seem to win. I would like to think it was to do with table image, in part in may be, but I think a smaller part, as I recall on those tables I just kept getting drawn out over and over and over again. The players were not calling me down more, they always played their crap draws, they just kept catching. Sometimes I pulled the sessions back, usually the losing stopped at some point (when I tightened up and got better reads?) and I just lurked stuck 50-100 BB and made no progress.

I wonder how many have this experience - an otherwise glorious run of sessions peppered in a few places by some appalling sessions? I expect it is just another example of normal variance.

However, if, as I suspect, this is normal we need to deal with it psycholigically and strategically.

Changing tables will give you a fresh image, and psychologically allows you to let go of the loss and any feelings of "vengeance" towards players. This can only be good. But is it right when the other table had such weak players on it?

I remember one of my worst most-recent examples. In fact I posted some details of it (I was undergoing a big slide). One player was so bad, and just catching miracle card after miracle card (he hit every inside straight draw for 2 hours). It was always against me. Other players were sympathising (it really was that bad). Of course, he eventually lost everything, but not to me. My losing run ended, but I could only tread water and eventually left when I realised I was too tired/fuming to play on properly. It was entertaining in hindsight though.

What I do now, to avoid tilting, is something a few players have adopted. I buy in at around 30-40 BB, if I lose this or get too low in chips to make playing sensible, I take a short break, cup of tea etc. anbd review the table to decide if I should stay, and if my play/attitude is right. Often I just stop, sometimes I play on but with a better understanding of my image and the other players. Sometimes other players may be playing the table very well, and you just did not notice. Sometimes, you have been playing generally well but poorly against one particular player.

It is not just a question of if the "table is right", it's a question if "you are right" and even if you are "right for the table". I think having some kind of alarm (losing the buy-in) to force you to consider your play/position is good. This is NOT the same as a stop-loss, which most players agree is wrong, as it is an attempt to place artificial barriers on variance, and does not work. Some players will argue that you should constantly be aware of your play/image etc.. While this is true, it is not always so easy when you are multi-tabling and playing a lot of hands per hour.

Do not get into the habit of thinking "I should have quit when I was ahead" which you see a lot. If you are a winning player, you are always ahead. At the same time, we are free to stop whenever we want, and in a very tough session when I make a big hand, I will sometimes stop and just leave with the money. If it becomes a relief to get ahead, you are at the wrong table anyway.

[stripsqueez]

i think fold is the more common choice

as for the table image and table swapping thing - i have a problem with not wanting to play against good players - i dont like to think i can only win in a school of bad players - its not that i dont want to win the most money - even if i am a bit afraid of some of the guys at the table i should be able to adjust and find a decent strategy against them - if i only ever play chooks my game will suffer - i should be able to adjust to whatever image i have created profitably

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
1st thought: something happens psychologically to affect my play. But then wouldn't it be affecting my play at the other tables as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read John Feeneys thought on "subtle tilt" in his book "Inside the Poker Mind"? What he says about this kind of bad runs when you start to call instead of raising and check instead of betting, is pretty common-sense but it is good to remind you when you think you are not affected by your bad runs.

My main problem when I sit at a table and lose a lot, but the other players are pretty bad, they are starting to try to bluff. If a player that isnt analayzing a lot sees that you are outdrawn everytime (you can look pretty stupid betting those AK against his Q3, hit by 3 on flop time after time...) they will not only call, they will start to raise turn with a thin hand, thinking that if you dont fold they will hit river, like the last 10 times, anyway.

If I have a bad run, start to go on "subtle tilt" and people are suddenly raising turn a lot, well, then you better leave. I try to have a rule of 25BB. But when I get emotionally involved, its hard to stop. I put in another 5-10BB, but then I normally leave.

Good thing when people start to call you a lot is if you hit 3-4 good hands you will be paid well and maybe be back at breakeven.

Its very hard to estimate how much this subtle tilt is hurting you.