Is this a situation where I have to pay off?

[Xiphoid]

Party .50-1.00 game... a horrible table. I complete in the SB with QTs after four limp in before me.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players) </font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (21 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 37 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 37 BB, between Button, Hero, UTG+2 and MP2.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Button (37 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Qh Th (full house, tens full of queens).
UTG+2 shows 5c 9c (flush, queen high).
MP2 shows Qs 9h (two pair, queens and tens).
Button shows Jh Js (full house, jacks full of tens).
Outcome: Button wins 37 BB. </font>

Did I miss any bets? When my turn bet was raised by the button, I was thinking a higher set, AT or KT, and thought the chances of JJ to be unlikely since there was no PF raise. When my boat hit on the river, my friend said that this is simply a situation where I have to pay off and if I had been playing NL, all my chips would have gone into the center without a second thought.

[tech]

Your buddy is right. Just a tough hand. No way you can fold here. The button is just a bad player who got lucky.

[SparkyDog]

Other than not raising PF (limping on the button with JJ and only 3 limpers to you is inexcusable), how did the button play the hand sub-optimally?

[tech]

Just calling on the river (twice).

[bisonbison]

This is fine.

Postflop, I think button played it fine as well.

[DoctorDrew]

[ QUOTE ]
Other than not raising PF (limping on the button with JJ and only 3 limpers to you is inexcusable), how did the button play the hand sub-optimally?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I wasn't at the table, so I don't know how a raise would have played, but doesn't HPFAP advise that with JJ you either want a lot of player or just 1 or 2? The worst case scenario is to be in with 2 or 3 callers.

I am at work, so I don't have access to the book, but is it possible the button understood this and thought a raise might drive out too many people?

[bisonbison]

Now, I wasn't at the table, so I don't know how a raise would have played, but doesn't HPFAP advise that with JJ you either want a lot of player or just 1 or 2? The worst case scenario is to be in with 2 or 3 callers.

There have been a lot of threads about this concept. Basically, there are no micro or small stakes games where raising JJ preflop is a bad idea.

[tech]

OK. I'll admit I was in a hurry when I typed my first response and might have been a bit quick to judge the button. But can those of you who think he played it well give a reason for not raising the river?

If I am button, I am almost certain I have won. If hero just calls, button gains one more BB. Even if hero folds to button's raise, button will almost certainly gain two more BB.

Please help. I cannot see how just calling is even close to a good play.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the reason I said button got lucky is because if hero doesn't raise the river, button misses out on a ton of bets.

[DoctorDrew]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, I wasn't at the table, so I don't know how a raise would have played, but doesn't HPFAP advise that with JJ you either want a lot of player or just 1 or 2? The worst case scenario is to be in with 2 or 3 callers.

There have been a lot of threads about this concept. Basically, there are no micro or small stakes games where raising JJ preflop is a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Bison, I didn't mean to imply it would be wrong to raise PF. I was just asking if whne looking at results (beacuse we weren't at the table)limping might have been the correct play. I mean when you have 6 in the hand and hit your set you get paid off big! I think those threads were before my time--any idea how long ago?

Plus, I know how much you love limping. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bisonbison]

Well, if I knew that I would flop top boat and someone else would flop trips and we'd trap people in between us, then, no, I probably wouldn't want to raise preflop, but...


Plus, I don't mind limping in general, I just like giving people a hard time.

[submariner]

Just as a general question, is there anything you can do different, strageywise, when you are playing against people who will limp PF with hands like that?

The other night I had two hands about of the first five at a Party .50/1 table where someone (different player each hand) limped with AA and AK.

Do you just always assume someone might have AA,KK etc, and play accordingly? Do you change tables?

I know we can't always be worried about monsters under the bed, but how else do you deal with this?

Any insight greatly appreciated.

[Rico Suave]

Hey submariner:

[ QUOTE ]
, is there anything you can do different, strageywise, when you are playing against people who will limp PF with hands like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I think players that are not raising preflop, even with their big hands, are pretty passive post flop. So just give them more credit with they are betting or raising than you might a typical opponent. (e.g. they will not be pumping a flush draw on the flop for value, they will not 3-bet the flop or raise the turn with just top pair, etc.)

--Rico

[submariner]

So give their bets/raises more respect than the average player's, especially if they have been calling, then bet when a third of a suit hits, things like that. Makes sense, thanks.

[sfer]

I wouldn't consider it paying off; you played it fine. The turn raise from the button is a bit unnerving--I had the same read as you, until I noticed the title of your post--, but when the button goes docile on the river I play it the same.

[kiemo]

I read the button as JJ/JT on the flop after his 3-bet check raise and seeing as three other tens were already out the jacks were more then likely his hand.


Dont expect micro players to raise JJ preflop, hell alot of them wont even raise AA.

[B Dids]

I put him on that too- don't know if I would have done that had the title of the post been something of a tell.

[Xiphoid]

Thanks for all of the replies.

I was thrown off by the fact that the button didn't raise here with JJ and I think his pre-flop and river play is poor.

On the pre-flop action, he had three limpers in front of him, which, for Party .50-1.00, is rather low, and he had a chance to steal the blinds. With JJ, I'd much rather have one or two players going to the flop with me than four or five and I would raise to get people out. Unlike AA, if any of the players spike an A, K or Q on the flop, you're most likely toast, so you bet to try to get that person with K2 or Q6 to fold. This was my line of thinking, but it wasn't his, and it threw me off for the rest of the hand.

On the river, I think his play is quite poor... just calling the bet of the person who made the flush. He wants people betting here again so he can raise the heck out of them, but he just calls. When I check-raise, the person with the flush raises me and yet this guy still calls. I had a lot of respect at the table, up $25, so possibly the button was so afraid of me that he put me on TT or AcKc. However, I still feel that in that situation, the button has to go to the felt.

[Peter Harris]

i think the button should tip you for playing his hand for him.

he is totally incapable.

Pete Harris