Basic Laydown? I thought so.

[FletchJr.]

Thought for about 2 seconds, then said " my hands no good"
Comments welcome

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB bets, UTG raises, Hero folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 7.66 BB

[BaronVonCP]

I'm not sure this is so basic.

Sure its not a horrible fold, it may not even be a bad fold.


What do you put UTG on? Could he raise with KJ or KQ here?

[Kluddeludde]

I wouldn't fold this one. Your check on the turn may induce someone to take a shot at you. BB tried (as he folded to the raise) and UTG may have the lone king. I would call this one, unless I had a very good read on my opponent.

Kludde

[FletchJr.]

You know what, now that I re look this hand, its' a tough river deciscion. There is one thing i didn't see before. I didn't even notice the turn was a 2. giving me two pair. That changes things, see that is one of the problems with playing 4 games, when your distracted a 2 on the turn just looks like a blank /images/graemlins/frown.gif

It's still a tough call, not many players would raise a lonely king there unless they're lags. I would still fold against a typical player.

[Nate tha' Great]

Hi Fletch,

I would have considered betting the turn here.

The thing about that board, which has no card higher than a T, is that it gives ample room for a hand like AJ, KJ, KQ etc to draw to overcards and/or gutshots. Obviously, there's a flush draw out there too. I'm not convinced that you're behind, and giving a free card to a hand that could outdraw you is bad news. I'd bet the turn and try to get a free showdown.

[blackaces13]

I think I'd call and hope UTG had something like KQ.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Fletch,

I would have considered betting the turn here.

The thing about that board, which has no card higher than a T, is that it gives ample room for a hand like AJ, KJ, KQ etc to draw to overcards and/or gutshots. Obviously, there's a flush draw out there too. I'm not convinced that you're behind, and giving a free card to a hand that could outdraw you is bad news. I'd bet the turn and try to get a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree...if you bet turn, got 2 calls, then it was bet, raise, then to you. Then perhaps an easier fold or perhaps still a call. Do you think they were slow playing on turn expecting you to bet? Those are things I would think about, when looking at this call.

[Randy Burgess]

I don't like your laydown at all, for several related reasons.

The BB's river bet could easily be an attempt to steal or semi-steal with something like 2nd pair since all checked the turn and a scare card has now fallen. Of course, it's easy to say this after the fact since we know he folded to the raise, but it's a reasonable hunch at the time.

That leaves the UTG raise, and as someone else has suggested, something like KQ is quite plausible for him to hold. Your turn passivity has assured UTG that you don't hold a big overpair, so the only thing that threatens him is the BB holding a straight or you holding exactly the hand you do hold.

The other very real possibility is that UTG has rivered a genuinely big hand, e.g. he holds QJ. Given that you checked the turn it's quite possible he'd go for the raise here rather than trying to get you to overcall.

Balancing these two possibilities - a KQ type of hand versus a monster - I think you need to go for the call, not just for this pot but for future hands. You will get run over by some of the better players if you start tightening up too much - they don't know what you have when you fold here, but they know you raised preflop, most likely with two big cards, froze up on the turn in a short-handed pot, and have now let yourself be pushed out on the river when a big card comes that you logically could have held.

It's a subtle effect, but argues in favor of showing down rather than folding.

P.S. Do you own Bob Ciaffone's "Improve Your Poker"? He has some excellent essays on the question of when to bet the turn after you've missed - a key consideration being how many opponents are in the pot with you.

[Schmed]

I think you have to call here. The raiser could be something like KQ or KJ. He's as likely to have one of those two holdings as he is to have a 2, JQ, or K10.

I follow through on the turn with a bet as well.