When were horses introduced to North America?

[Dynasty]

I was watching Dances With Wolves this afternoon. At the end of the film, there is a short text saying that within a couple decades the last of the Sioux tribes succumbed to white rule. It also said that it marked the end of the "horse culture" on the Great Plains.

It is my understanding that horses were first brought to North America by European settlers. First, am I right about that?

Also, how long was it before Native Americans first begam using the horse? When did this "horse culture" first begin?

[HUSKER'66]

At the end of the 15th century, when the first Europeans came to America, there were no horses; the cultural tribes of Indians (in today’s Mexico and Peru) did not have a name for the animal. The Spanish imported predecessors of all the horses in America for the first time. The runaway horses (also cattle) went wild on the pampas and soon proliferated into large herds, only to be caught later and again domesticated.

Hope this helps.

Husker

[GWB]

You are correct. The first North American horse population of note was introduced by the Spanish in Mexico in the 1520s and spread rapidly north. There was a continental trade in horses by the various tribes by 1600 (in addition to all the wild herds).

This brings up an interesting point about the Lakota Sioux. As you may know they claim the Black Hills of South Dakota as their ancestoral lands. Before the advent of the horse culture, however, the Sioux lived in the Minnesota area. They used the horse to conquer the Black Hills from other tribal nations that they displaced. This happened less than 100 years before the US took the land from them (during the gold rush).

So they stole the lands from other nations, held it for less than 100 years, but now would try to make you believe that it should be theirs (as if they had lived there for thousands of years). Just trying to exploit the "guilt-ridden hearts" of white people.

[Boris]

You are correct about horses being introduced by Europeans. It is believed that the Paiute indians (who lived primarily in Nevada) were the first tribe to capture and/or steal horses from the Spaniards. As you can imagine, the Great Basin area can not naturally support a highly concentrated population. So the Paiute were a very decentralized tribe that lived in small family sub-clans and were spread across a wide geographic area. As a result the Paiute were known for being especially independant minded; others might describe them as having wild and crazy personalities. Well when the Paiute got horses they ran hog wild and made life miserable for surrounding tribes. In short order the neighboring tribes began looting horses from the Paiute and rest is history. The Paiute probably first got horses in the mid 1500's.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm particularly fond of the Paiute golf courses.

[smudgex68]

Yes, the Europeans did indeed introduce the horse to North America. Unfortunately, it didn't comply with existing North American safety legislation, as it went too fast. The product has since been revised to meet the demands of this large market.

[southerndog]

[ QUOTE ]
I was watching Dances With Wolves

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry to hear that. I thought that was the sh***iest of all movies that one big time awards and praise. Costner's the worst actor and the movie was about 2 hours longer than it had to be. I guess there needed to be a movie about all that, just not Costner, and not that long.

[Chris Alger]

"Horses" were not introduced to North America by whites. They arrived via the Bering Straight land bridge but died out around 15,000 years ago. Early "Indians" probably used them for food.

Domesticated European horses were introduced to Indians around 1600 and became a vital part of the culture of southwestern Indians by the end of that century. By the middle 18th century, horses had spread to the Teton Sioux. Indian "horse culture" in North America therefore lasted about 250-300 years, comparable to quite a few others that have come and gone.

The term "horse culture" seems odd, a maybe a throwback to white romanticism of Indians. The horse was obviously vital to a number of tribes but their cultures had all sorts of traits of ancient origin that had nothing to do with horses. Other cultures have owed their existence to particular animals, but I don't think anyone speaks of goat or llama cultures.

[GWB]

[ QUOTE ]
"Horses" were not introduced to North America by whites. They arrived via the Bering Straight land bridge but died out around 15,000 years ago. Early "Indians" probably used them for food.

Domesticated European horses were introduced to Indians around 1600 and became a vital part of the culture of southwestern Indians by the end of that century. By the middle 18th century, horses had spread to the Teton Sioux. Indian "horse culture" in North America therefore lasted about 250-300 years, comparable to quite a few others that have come and gone.

The term "horse culture" seems odd, a maybe a throwback to white romanticism of Indians. The horse was obviously vital to a number of tribes but their cultures had all sorts of traits of ancient origin that had nothing to do with horses. Other cultures have owed their existence to particular animals, but I don't think anyone speaks of goat or llama cultures.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, what a politically correct post!

Talking about a "horse culture" is no different than talking about our "car culture" or "fast-food culture". It doesn't mean it was the only important thing in their culture, or that their previous history no longer matters.

And horses had a big impact. How long does it take to walk 100 miles, how long to ride a horse 100 miles?

[Boris]

All Scientific evidence for Indians in North America indicates that Indians came over the Bering Straight land bridge at the very end of the Pleistocene epoch. That was about 10-11,000 years ago, not 15,000. 15,000 years ago the polar ice cap probably made that crossing impossible for even wild horses.

I also disagree with the rate of spread for horses once they were introduced into North America. My understanding is that rate of technology spread among the Indians was quite rapid, especially with the horse.

[MMMMMM]

Yes, "fast-food culture" or "automobile culture" are fine. "Automobile culture" is especially appropriate.

For Indians living on the plains, horses would have been especially useful, much like cars are for us today. It is easy to see how they would have become a central part of the culture.

I suspect Alger is PC-indoctrinated beyond hope of redemption;-)

[Boris]

Just so I understand this, you are saying the Lakota Sioux have no claim to the Black Hills and instead the land should be given back to the Crow Indians? They are the ones who got beat down by the Sioux. Many historians believe the Crow nation would have become extinct in another 100 years if the white man had not shown up.

[ QUOTE ]
Just trying to exploit the "guilt-ridden hearts" of white people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am happy to be here but if you don't feel some shame for the way white people treated the Indians then your moral compass needs to be adjusted.

[paland]

[ QUOTE ]
I am happy to be here but if you don't feel some shame for the way white people treated the Indians then your moral compass needs to be adjusted.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about those of us who are 3/4 white but 1/4 Indian? Are we supposed to feel repressed or guilty?

[Boris]

1/4 guilty.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

What about those of us who are 3/4 white but 1/4 Indian? Are we supposed to feel repressed or guilty?What about those of us who are 3/4 white but 1/4 Indian? Are we supposed to feel repressed or guilty?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

What about those Americans who are 3/4 White and 1/4 Black? Would the "reparations" advocates have them pay reparations or recive reparations?

[andyfox]

One thing I've noticed is that mediocre, often laconic actors who turn to directing, tend to make very slow-moving movies (Clint Eastwood, Robert Redford, Ron Howard, Kevin Costner, Mel Gibson), epecially in their initial efforts.

Having said this, I like Dances With Wolves. I didn't mind the slow pace, as I didn't in Unforgiven.

[BirthdayBoy]

Poker content:

The DVD of Unforgiven has an episode of the 1950/60's TV show Maverick (James Garner with guest star Clint Eastwood). Maverick gives poker advice, including "being tight."

[Cyrus]

There's these 3 surgeons braggin' to each other.

-- You shoulda seen that operation I did last year, says the first one. There was a guy last year in an accident that lost both his legs and I operated him and now he is running the Olympics Marathon.

-- Ah, that's nothing, says the second one. There is this poor man last yeat lost both arms and legs and I operated him so good he is now playing in the NBA.

-- You guys are smalltimers, says the third surgeon. I had this cowboy last year who run into a train and all that was left was his cowboy hat and the horse's ass and I operated him and he is now President of the United States.

[Chris Alger]

I'm wrong about the final extinction of horses, as a lot of sites says they survived until 10 thousand years ago.

I understand that pleistocene horse fossils in N. America have been traced to Asian ancestors, so they got here somehow, tens of millions of years before people. There is good evidence (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/05/0511_ancienthorses.html) that they lived side-by-side with people and were hunted for their meat.

Radiocarbon dates of Clovis sites puts people here at least 11,000 - 11,500 years ago (but not BC), and I believe the best evidence suggests they arrived around 14,000 ya. The sensational claims a few years ago of people being here 20-30 thousand ya have been discredited, so far.

The earliest dates which plains Indians acquired horses are based on sitings by whites so I suspect they're uncertain. However, it seems clear that it took well over 100 years for horses to spread to the northern tribes.