Another Hand from My $10-20 Dip

[fsuplayer]

$10-20 Grand at Biloxi

EP Player is very aggressive with his draws, preflop havent seen him raise a bunch, but I have only been there for a little over an hour and he has shown down a lot of suited connectors and such.

CO Calling station to the max, calls raises with any Axo, any two broadway cards, (almost) any two suited, and def. any pair.

EP raises and it is folded to me in LP with A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I call. If it was going to be heads up I would not call, but this game has been loose and there is the calling station in the CO and two very loose blinds.

CO calls, no suprise, and BB calls. 3 way action which is about half the norm at this table.

Flop ($65): A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
BB checks, EP bets, I raise, CO cold calls, BB folds, EP 3-bets, I call, CO calls.

Turn ($155):9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Once, he three bet me, I am thinking that EP might have AK or AQ here, so I feel like I stole one with this card, but....
EP checks?!? (what, did I giggle when this card peeled off?? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)
...I bet, CO calls, EP calls??

I am a little confused now, but ahead I'm sure.


River:K /images/graemlins/club.gif yuk! /images/graemlins/frown.gif
When this card hit, EP sits very upright and bets immediately.
Now I know I know, strong means weak blah blah blah...but this guy was very aggressive in nature and he didnt look like he was going for an oscar in this situation.


...I (just) call and CO calls.

Did I miss a river raise here?

Thanks for any advice,

FsuPlayer

[CrackerZack]

Fold PF. Seriously. I wouldn't raise the flop either. You're likely way behind but possibly way ahead. turn fine, river, given your previous play, is prudent.

[astroglide]

fold preflop, not close

[fsuplayer]

The reason I called this preflop was that for the last hour or so, raised pots had been 5,6 even 7 handed! I figured that the CO would come, maybe the semi loose button, and def. the way-too-loose blinds.
I was very suprised and a little dissappointed when they all did not join the party preflop.

CrackerZack and Astroglide-
Would this fold change into a call preflop if EP raised and two others called in front of me?
How many people do you want it in the pot before you will call with that Axs?
I figured that 5 would come along and that would be enough, but maybe I need to rethink Axs.

Thanks again,

FsuPlayer

[astroglide]

there's a huge thread discussing Axs for raise in the archives, i believe clarkmeister was the original poster.

[DcifrThs]

I really really really don't like the way you played or thought about this hand.

a9s needs DEFINITE callers in front NOT PROBABLE callers behind. you can't see their cards. just because they're in 8 out of 10 pots doesn't mean they'll be in this one.

further you stated yourself that you "haven't seen EP raise" which means when he DOES raise, watch out.

on the flop if you're behind you're raise will cost you more and for some reason you never considered laying this down. if you're actually ahead of him it means he has a big pair and will let up given any show of strength. you need to flat call the flop or fold, raising here just spews chips needlessly. turn plays itself. river is debateable. if you "felt" he hit it then call and its hard to say on a post...i'd have to be there.

but this is a marginal hand at best and is only reallllly profitable in the right spots. this is the worst possible spot for this hand.

if i saw this hand i would immediately request a seat at this table and try to get on your right so you'd just call behind me b/c i'd immediately conclude that your game needs a lot of work and you'd provide enough chips by yourself to make the game profitable. i'd likely soon see that i was wrong and it was a rare lapse in judgement but it doesn't change how i'd look at you from watching the play of this hand.

you need to fold these preflop.
-Barron

[fsuplayer]

Barron-
I dont like my play/thinking on this hand either. After the flop, I was thinking back and wondering why the heck I three bet. If I am behind, i am drawing to the three nines left in the deck, and if I am ahead, I let him get away cheaply. I think you are right in that it should have been a call or fold situation.
Also, when that flop hit, I wasnt sure whether I liked it or hated it. Which is probably why you are advocating folding preflop, so that I dont have these decisions to make postflop.

I am making the transition to limit from NL. This means that I am loosing up my raising standards, as well as my calling standards. In this hand I may have loosened up too much and that coupled with the fact that I assumed multiway action preflop.

Another reason I called preflop was the the EP was many times overaggressive post flop with very marginal holdings...which on this hand, hits a little too close to home /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.


As far as coming into my game and expecting to catch my loose chips...well, probably not the best +EV for you, as I was by far (right or wrong) the tightest player at that game, despite my loose butchering of the above hand.

FsuPlayer

BTW EP had JJ and CO had A5o and MHIG.

[James282]

I can't possibly understand why you raised the flop. Do you want him to fold 99-KK here? 3 bet you with a better ace? These seem to be the only outcomes, none of which are good. If you think you are ahead, let him continue to bet into you with an inferior hand. The fold preflop is not close, I agree.
-James

[Schmed]

I'm not sure if you're relying on 3 way action that calling there is correct. I make the call if I have the 2 to me and loosies behind but I dunno folded to me and not sure that it's going to be multi-way.

In your defense I know the Grand 10-20 and it's super loose so it would be a hard non-call to make because you can usually rely on 4 people calling 2 cold on every flop plus the blinds.

I just call down on the river too. 2 reasonable holdings that he could have are kk and ak, I know there are no monsters but we're seeing this through and the pot is big enough already.

[amerksmann22]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop, not close


[/ QUOTE ]

Could not agree more!

I just posted on another thread where a "TAP" called a raise in the SB (2/3 structure) with A9s with only a UTG raiser. That is bad poker and he is not a TAP. Only hand any tight early position player raises with that you are ahead of now is KQs otherwise you have 3 outs to A (against KK-TT) or 3 outs to a 9 (againsts AKs-AJs or AKo, AQo) but could still lose to their kicker. AA has you in deep sh*t.

Dont make this play! You are trapping yourself.

-Stoney

[fsuplayer]

Schemed-
That is exactly why I called this. I hated when everyone dropped behind me though.

I see where everyone is coming from about the flop and I completely agree, it was a boneheaded play.

Now, here is my follow up question:

What hands (if any) do you raise that flop with and why?
I am trying to get at what is the typical reason for raising the flop in a three way raised pot?
So if the EP raiser bets into you here, with the calling station behind you, what hands do you raise with here and why?

Thanks again for the advice as I def. have some leaks I need to plug in my game,

FsuPlayer

[Schmed]

I don't know how long you've been lurking and I know you've been making the transition from NL to limit but a lot of this kind of thing is in the archives plus a lot of good info. If the questions get too basic in the mid stakes forum people will get uptight...for some reason........

Your description of EP raiser is a big issue here as well. He's a guy who never raises preflop and now he's raising. Now he may not have had cards,(did he ever limp UTG?? Having said that tighty Mc'Whitey get's no action from me. I fold and move on unless I have pairs of 9's or better, AQ up and I 3 bet preflop. If he caps you know you're in trouble. A guy like that there isn't capping anything but big hands. Conversely he will never cap AK. I bet he doesn't cap his jacks hu. The problem with guys like that there is that they will call you down so say you had the 9's he's not getting off of that hand if the flop was AKQ.

[Schmed]

"That is exactly why I called this. I hated when everyone dropped behind me though"

I have to admit I get myself in trouble in these games with situations like this. The hands are usually played 6-7 way and 4-5 of them will call 2 cold with absolute garbage, (any suited cards, any ace, any painted cards), that it's hard not to call with something like that or even worse, j10s, something like that.

My solution is to not call 2 cold first one in with hands like that. Like I said if I have 2 to me I'll call the two in these games because you can count on the BB and half the time the guy on the button with the K10o will call as well. Directly after a raise like that I like to raise. If it's Tighty McWhitey I don't get too tricky and only play top hands and I make it 3 bets.

It was a major leak in my game that I still have to remind myself about at the table.

[fsuplayer]

Schmed-
Thanks for the response, I will check those out.

FsuPlayer

[fsuplayer]

Schmed-
Do you live/play in NO?
If so, I will PM you next ride I take to Biloxi. Maybe ill go the extra hour and check out Harrah's. I would love to meetup and play with yourself or any other 2+2'ers in town.

FsuPlayer

[Schmed]

sure, let me know. I play Harrahs all the time. They spread 10-20 24-7.

I've been thinking about taking a ride over to the Grand next weekend.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Barron-
I dont like my play/thinking on this hand either. After the flop, I was thinking back and wondering why the heck I three bet. If I am behind, i am drawing to the three nines left in the deck, and if I am ahead, I let him get away cheaply. I think you are right in that it should have been a call or fold situation.
Also, when that flop hit, I wasnt sure whether I liked it or hated it. Which is probably why you are advocating folding preflop, so that I dont have these decisions to make postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup. that and you're behind almost any hand somebody who you don't see raising alot preflop comes in early with a raise preflop. and since you're next in line, no matter how loose players behind are you'd still need a few in front to assure a nice large pot to support your draw.

[ QUOTE ]

I am making the transition to limit from NL. This means that I am loosing up my raising standards, as well as my calling standards. In this hand I may have loosened up too much and that coupled with the fact that I assumed multiway action preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

A9s is not even close to being worthy of "loosening up" standards in NL and will just kill your stack in any situation even close to resembling this one.

[ QUOTE ]

Another reason I called preflop was the the EP was many times overaggressive post flop with very marginal holdings...which on this hand, hits a little too close to home /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

um, you called preflop b/c you wanted to put in MORE bets post flop with a marginal holding?? you're losing me, my friend. it also doesn't change the fact (nor have you addressed the issue) that HE RAISED first in early which you said he doesn't do alot meaning he most likely has a quality holding. and you cold call behind him with a marginal holding b/c he gets aggressive with marginal holdings postflop. he doesn't have a marginal holding here and if he gets aggressive later then you're likely way behind and not happy about putting bets in. easy fold "not even close."

[ QUOTE ]

As far as coming into my game and expecting to catch my loose chips...well, probably not the best +EV for you, as I was by far (right or wrong) the tightest player at that game, despite my loose butchering of the above hand.

FsuPlayer

[/ QUOTE ]

like i said, i would likely quickly see i was wrong and just wasted fishing time b/c i applied one hand to a player and assumed thats how he played. once i saw you didn't enter a single other pot i'd be disapointed and likely confused /images/graemlins/confused.gif . then i'd realize a good player just made a silly mistake in a hand and 'im not gunna be getting any of those spewing chips i imagined. i'd be much better off following clark around with a bucket when he drinks /images/graemlins/wink.gif .

[ QUOTE ]

BTW EP had JJ and CO had A5o and MHIG.

[/ QUOTE ]

my god this must have been a fantastic game. despite the fact you got out of line early in the hand and came in when you shouldn't EP certainly makes it worth your while by vastly overplaying his pair, not to mention the A5 lol (unless there was a 5 there that i missed). so kudos on your game selection.

oh, by the way, you should have folded preflop /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Barron

[fsuplayer]

I wish I was able to head there every weekend, but I have an internship and a girlfriend, and the latter is what keeps me in town more than I would like.
I will prob. try to go once in the next month, maybe June 5th weekend as they have their Southern Classic $550 Limit Tourney. Funny thing is that everyone said the side games there esp. the $10-20 is great during that weekend...maybe even NL too. I cant imagine the games being too much better, but hey ill check it out! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

June 15th however, my girlfriend is leaving for Europe and I am thinking about dropping my late summer session class and heading there every weekend!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I will PM you when I am heading there next.

Regards,

FsuPlayer

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
then i'd realize a good player just made a silly mistake in a hand and 'im not gunna be getting any of those spewing chips i imagined.

[/ QUOTE ]
Other than this brainfart, I think that I played half decent in the game with only some minor mistakes...most of which came from a little bit weak tightness (not this hand though)

[ QUOTE ]
i'd be much better off following clark around with a bucket when he drinks

[/ QUOTE ]
ROFLMAO!


[ QUOTE ]
my god this must have been a fantastic game. despite the fact you got out of line early in the hand and came in when you shouldn't EP certainly makes it worth your while by vastly overplaying his pair, not to mention the A5 lol (unless there was a 5 there that i missed). so kudos on your game selection

[/ QUOTE ]

No you didnt miss a five, I think the CO did though /images/graemlins/tongue.gif



The game was fantastic.
I am certainly not naive enough to think that I can beat a regular $10-20 game, as I only have a couple hundred hours of B&M experiance, but I know I can beat that game easily and will continue playing it when I go back.


[ QUOTE ]
oh, by the way, you should have folded preflop

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL
I've heard, thanks /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

FsuPlayer

[builtiz]

How about this! 3-bet pre-flop! cap the flop! bet turn! and raise river! If your gonna suck out or on chance you might have the best of it, mine as well get max out of it. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[amerksmann22]

I hope you are joking. That is the worst advice...no only are you going to lose in the long run but you are going to lose more!

Just my opinion,
-Stoney

[RoodyPooh]

[ QUOTE ]
on the flop if you're behind you're raise will cost you more and for some reason you never considered laying this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with the pre-flop call and think raising/calling the flop is debatable, but considering laying this down in any other part of the hand besides pre-flop is terrible.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the pre-flop call and think raising/calling the flop is debatable, but considering laying this down in any other part of the hand besides pre-flop is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think anyone was suggesting that I lay this down after the flop...esp. once my top two pair hit.

FsuPlayer

[nepenthe]

Unless EP is being tricky I'd put him on KK. PF it would be a close decision between folding and calling, depending on my reads, but most likely fold due to lack of players. On flop I would definitely not raise. Most likely, either EP has a better ace or he has a lower PP. If I'm going to stay in, I plan to call down all the way. Turn and river are fine imo.