Is this why limit tourneys suck?

[fnurt]

I normally play NL tourneys but last night for some reason I decided to play a $30 MTT limit event on Stars.

After the tournament got down to about 40 people things became very tight-aggressive. Most hands were taken down by the first preflop raise; I think there was a turn card once every 10 minutes.

Taking advantage of the situation and stealing quite a few pots, I made it to the final table as chip leader with about 45k, at which point a crazy thing happened. Suddenly there was a hand with a bunch of limpers - the first such hand in an hour - and this being limit, I was powerless to make them fold!

PokerStars (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: fnurt is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Blinds are 1000/2000.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, fnurt (poster) raises, BB folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
fnurt bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
fnurt bets, UTG calls, MP3 raises all-in, CO calls, fnurt raises, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
fnurt bets, UTG calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 64467

Results in white below: <font color="white">
fnurt shows Ac Ah (one pair, aces).
UTG shows Qd As (one pair, queens).
MP3 shows Kh Qh (one pair, queens).
CO mucked Kc Tc (high card ace)
Outcome: fnurt wins a pot of 64467. </font>

I realize this was supposed to be a bad beat story and I apologize for letting you down. But I guess what frustrates me, and what prompts me to make this post, is that it seems like there was simply no opportunity for any kind of skill here since I had no ability to defend my hand. I'm so accustomed to NL where you can pick up the pot when the time is right or else force someone to make a horrible call in order to continue.

So in spite of my nice result here, am I right to prefer NL tourneys? Or is there some subtle strategy nuance of limit that I'm not appreciating?

[La Brujita]

I don't think limit tourneys suck at all. There are some small differences in the skill sets you need but I am playing them for a change of pace and am enjoying them.

Congrats on doing well! How did you finish?

[CrackerZack]

The 2 clubs make difficult for you to do anything but club them over the head with bets. You *could* check-raise the flop and hope to knock out a couple of players but its unlikely you'll lose a Q and impossible to lose a flush draw.

[eMarkM]

I prefer NL, of course, but play and do well in a lot of limit tourneys as well. One thing I notice is since you can't go all-in right away, it takes longer to get those big stack disparities you see much sooner in NL. No one's doubling up and no one's getting eliminated on the first hand. This seems to have the effect of making the blinds larger in relation to the average stack size as the event drags on since everyone's more even and takes longer for the eliminations to start. So, if anything, I play tighter in limit than I do in NL since any hand you get involved often has you committed to the end once the blinds rise. I've made final tables where I only had 2-3 hands go to the river, but I'd double up each time with the best hand and the last bet put in by one of us would be the last in our stack.

There is skill involved, obviously hand selection being prime. Gap concept seems to be even more prevelent since potential callers aren't getting those implied odds they do in NL. You can't just make a huge bluff to get them out, so I tend to just play solid hands and not get too tricky. You have to be more creative in protecting your hand, mainly through the use of the check raise to limit the field. In your case I think you did just fine value betting your hand and getting paid off. You may have gone for a C/R to get more money in the pot, since AQ would have surely bet your hand or to try and limit the field if you thought a LP player would bet. But just betting your hand is usually good enough.

Congrats on your win in the sucky limit tourney /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[La Brujita]

eMarkM,

If I may compliment you, I thought this was an absolutely fantastic post. I am just moving into more limit tournaments and I have also noticed solid poker gets you the money. I am struggling a bit with the exact fact you mention, every hand you enter with a raise late gets you pretty well committed from a middle stack. If you win that hand you are pretty good to go. I posted one of those hands from the 25k guaranteed when I had a middle pair on the button with big blinds, for me the middle pairs that you raise with from late position and get cold called with huge blinds are incredibly difficult to play since you are almost committed to see it to the end.

If I can add one other skill that I think is helpful/pretty important it is to pick a good time to bluff raise an opponent if you are not getting any hands. Many people on a steal may lead out at a flop but fold to a raise once blinds are big.

[fnurt]

Very nice post. In retrospect I'm pretty surprised that neither of the Q hands tested me with a raise on the flop, which probably would have helped limit the field.

I didn't go for a check-raise on the flop because I think, with this much money on the line, if you play it that way you'd better be 99% sure someone is going to bet. I was so befuddled by everyone's decision to limp before the flop that I really had no reason to think anyone would bet for sure. If the flop had been checked around and I had lost to a free card I would have gone to bed very unhappy.

I did go on to win the tournament after this hand, somewhat anticlimactically since this hand left me with over half the chips in play. It's nice to see AA hold up for once, but I really can't convey the frustration I felt as I pushed out bet after bet and these formerly aggressive players were all like call, call, call and there was nothing I could do.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
and there was nothing I could do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing ? You bet they call with worse hands, seems ok to me.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
but I really can't convey the frustration I felt as I pushed out bet after bet and these formerly aggressive players were all like call, call, call and there was nothing I could do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea why this frustrates you. It is just a different game than NL. Just like PL is different as well.