I can't play against LAGs

[Soggy Salmon]

LAGs are the worst for me. I can never beat them. I have taken to just leaving a table when there is one there. But at Party 2/4 it seems there are a bunch. I can't avoid them all the time.

At this table, the LAG was running everyone over, playing over 60% his hands and if he got anything at all on the flop he played like he had a full house until the river. He also would just bluff on pure nothing every few hands. A lot of people at the table were trying to take shots at him, making them all play like LAGs, too. I decided that since I was directly to his left, I was in the best spot and figured I needed to learn how to play against them. I didn't do so well.

UTG in this hand was one of the people at the table trying to take the LAG's money by playing and betting to the hilt anything slightly better than gabage against him.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 <font color="purple">(LAG)</font> raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 <font color="purple">(LAG)</font> caps</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">LAG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">LAG caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (15 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">LAG bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">LAG 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, LAG calls, Hero calls.

River: (27 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">LAG bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 30 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 30 BB, between UTG, LAG and Hero.</font>

Comments on this one hand here are great, but what general advice is there for playing against these guys? I play tight and 3-bet him to try to get headsup against him but what if the other players are all trying to do the same thing and you can't often get headsup?

[Nate tha' Great]

You can fold the hand on the turn when UTG check-raises. I know the pot is ridonkulous, but lay down those Cowboys.

LAGs are the worst for me. I can never beat them. I have taken to just leaving a table when there is one there. But at Party 2/4 it seems there are a bunch. I can't avoid them all the time.

That's not a good attitude for your bottom line. I'd guess that something like a 1/4 of my win rate is the direct result of seating to the left of LAG players.

Comments on this one hand here are great, but what general advice is there for playing against these guys? I play tight and 3-bet him to try to get headsup against him but what if the other players are all trying to do the same thing and you can't often get headsup?

- If the other players are letting you, then you should play *looser* rather than tighter, since the average strength of LAG's hands will be much less than you're used to. If they're not letting you isolate, that's when you should default to a tighter preflop strategy.

- It's important to remember that you should still be considering your position relative to the Button in making preflop decisions, and not just your position relative to the LAG.

- You can also consider cold calling with a hand like Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif that plays well multiway.

- It's also worth remembering that isolation doesn't only have to come before the flop; you can often leverage the maniac to fold out hands that you don't want to call by forcing them to face two bets.

- Finally, even if you're playing correctly in these situations, your variance will be very high.

[Little Fishy]

I find the seat to the left of a lag isn't the best, I'd rather be to his right. It's good to be to the left of tight agressive players because you can determine what they have, or whether your draws are worth it by seeing if they bet, check, call or raise. I find you can often anticipate LAG's moves anyways, and so by sitting to their right you can put a play on more players. For instance if you have a flopped drawing hand then check, let the LAG bet and then see how many callers you have to figure out if it's worth playing. If you have a good hand but want people out, then bet, let the LAG raise and force potential callers to call two bets.

I find that in a loose over agressive game drawing hands often go up in value while pat hands such as preflop high pairs go down.

-Little Fishy

[Little Fishy]

Sorry, just posted but I forgot one part...

In limit games I would rather be to the right of LAGs, but in NL games I would much rather be to there left because It's much harder to tell whether some one will bet than it is to tell how much they will bet. also it's harder to get trapped between raises on the righht of a LAG than it is on the left.

-Little Fishy

[BugsBunny]

I'm the other way around. I rather be to the left of a LAG and to the right of a TAG.

By being to the left of a LAG I can reraise to isolate much easier. By being to the right of a TAG I can raise to cause him to fold much easier. Even if he knows I may be raising a little light a true TAG doesn't have many hands he's willing to 3 bet with (against reasonable players), and will rarely cold-call - so he'll usually fold to your raise. And when he does cold-call or 3 bet he usually has some sort of hand, so you can adjust and play accordingly (depending on what you actually had).

[tripdad]

in general, if you can get the LAG to yourself, he is much easier to play. i'm convinced that the proper strategy is to play extra tight and aggressive. you did exactly everything correct here until the turn, where you should have folded to the check/raise. if you are heads up with the LAG, you must call him down when you can beat a bluff. in this case, the real action was coming from elsewhere. with any other card but the ace, you can call this down.

my LAG strategy in a nutshell:

rule 1: play only premium hands.

rule 2: get him isolated whenever possible.

rule 3: when you have a premium hand after the flop, shovel in the chips.

rule 4: if you can beat a bluff(this can mean Ace high), call(no raising) to the river(assuming you are heads up). if you are not heads up, ignore the LAG and put the other opponent on a range of hands and act accordingly.

rule 5: prepare to stay at this table until LAG leaves, even if it is much longer than you had planned to play.

rule 6: after the LAG leaves, stay one more orbit and play LAG poker for a few hands. your table image is phenomenal right now...take advantage of it.

cheers!

[Louie Landale]

Preamble: lets pretend there is a player that never looks and always bets. If this player is on your LEFT then YOU are "utg" on all betting rounds. If this player is on your RIGHT then YOU are last on all betting rounds. And I mean "last" regardless of the actual position of the button.

I've been reading these forums for years and the following is a minority opinion. However I'm sure I'm correct.

The only time you should put the LAG on your right (figuring to face the field with a 3-bet when he 2-bets) is when [1] you WILL definately control the field when you do so, AND [2] you WILL definately outplay the LAG heads-up. [1] means you don't fear someone else jumping the 3-bet then raising with a hand worse then yours. I doubt either of these situations applies to you. [1] From what you described of the field they are going to jump your raises [2] from what you described about your feelings you aren't going to outplay the LAG.

Put the LAG in your LEFT. Routinely check it to him. This puts you in last position. You get to find out if you should fold, call, or raise with the weaker hands that you would normally be forced to 3-bet the LAG with if he's on your right.

There is a LOT more money to be made when you trap the loose callers with your reasonably strong hand than there is in making the loose callers FOLD the hands that they SHOULD call you with.

Put the predictable folks on your left.

- Louie

[brick]

I think there may be a new term for this. “Drafting”
I'm hoping to get Dynasty’s opinion.

...see thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=672132&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#672132)

[Little Fishy]

what I've often found against LAGs, unless it's an unusualy tight game, is that it isn't always that easy to isolate them. I've noticed that profitable LAGs often induce normaly tight players to loosen up out of frustration or tactic, and unless you have a table image of being a tight player, you'll often get calls on your raises and reraises.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
It's good to be to the left of tight agressive players because you can determine what they have, or whether your draws are worth it by seeing if they bet, check, call or raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely wrong.

There is an axiom in poker- chips move clockwise around the table. Basically, this means it is expected that players will be winning chips from opponents they have position on.

You should be choosing a seat based on this. You want to have position on opponents who you will be contesting the majority of your pots against. Those opponents are loose players, whether aggessive or passive. Put them on your right.

You and other TAGs will rarely be contesting pots against each other. So, it's not at all important to have position on this opponent. Put them on your left.

Take this basic approach and you'll find you have position on your opponents substantially more often than you are out of position.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
rule 1: play only premium hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. If you aren't willing to 3-bet and isolate a LAG with A8o or J9s, then you shouldn't bother isolating at all.

The last thing I want is to be heads-up against a player who is likely to have very little when I'm holding a premium hand.

[Dynasty]

Isolation and Drafing. Those are your two best strategies.

You don't want to isolate the LAG with AA/KK/QQ. You want to isolate him with hands which are just a little bit better than his. You have to be willing to 3-bet with A8o and J9s to properly play on his immediate left.

Louie makes the strong point that if you can't regularly isolate the LAG then there isn't much point to being on the LAG's immediate left. If everybody's going to call your 3-bet with A8o, then don't make it. Just fold.

Drafting is your second option. Sit on the LAG's immediate right and check-raise him all night long. Hopefully, he'll 3-bet you a bunch which will both knock opponents out and get more money in the pot.

Your strategy choice is going to be decided not by yourself or the LAG but by unconciously by the rest of the table.

[MRBAA]

I think part of what is frustrating the poster is that you CAN'T isolate most of the time. In some of the live 4-8 games I play in that players will fold garbage hands preflop if there's NOT a raise, but if there is one and the pot is big, then they'll be more likely to call. It's an exagerration, but raising to narrow the field often won't work in these games, everyone will just take a "let's gamble" attitude. in that case, playing tight preflop is the right strategy, I think. But you should, of course, expand that to include hands that can play well multiway even for a raise. When there's frequent capping preflop, you can often still play a fair number of drawing hands, but only if you think you can outplay your opponents on the turn and river.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. If you aren't willing to 3-bet and isolate a LAG with A8o or J9s, then you shouldn't bother isolating at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

easy muck hands against a LAG. what are you gonna do when you whiff on the flop? the answer to beating a LAG is to CONSISTENTLY play better hands than he/she.

cheers!

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
easy muck hands against a LAG. what are you gonna do when you whiff on the flop? the answer to beating a LAG is to CONSISTENTLY play better hands than he/she.

[/ QUOTE ]

A8o and J9s are better hands than what a LAG is typically raising with.

[Nate tha' Great]

Maybe I'm being simple-minded, but it seems to me that A8o is much more fitting for an isolation play than J9s.

Then again, if the guy is truly a maniac on all streets, there's a lot to be said for getting it heads up with anything playable, simply because he'll put in way too many bets when behind and it's nice to be the sole beneficary of that.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
A8o and J9s are better hands than what a LAG is typically raising with.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true, but a LAG is also unpredictable(holdings wise). what is predictable is that when you have the premium hand, the LAG will raise it for you and pay you off. i'm sure with my strategy i will win less pots than you, but i will also lose less and when i do win, it will be a big one.

would love to continue this discussion, though...i respect your posts. do you try to isolate with any hand that beats a random hand? do you smooth call your premium hands to invite others to "isolate"?

cheers!

[Soggy Salmon]

The replies are great and very helpful, thank you.

In case anyone was interested, the LAG had T9o and UTG had J8o.

[Little Fishy]

I'm well aware of mike caro's theories, and for many people i'm sure this is correct, however in looser games with one particular LAG I find I do best when I sit to his right.

-just personal preference

-little fishy

[turnipmonster]

one thing that tommy angelo used to post about which is helpful sometimes is deciding very early in a hand if you are going to see a showdown. against a LAG who's a habitual bluffer, you may decide on the flop that you are calling down with A high come hell or high paint.

--turnipmonster

[BugsBunny]

Against a true LAG, and on a table where I can isolate, I'll play any A and usually go to the river with it.

You can figure a true LAG for, let's see - 2 random cards. Play accordingly. Any A is playable, usually any K as well. Plus a lot of other hands you wouldn't normally play.

The key is being able to isolate. If you can't then you have to become more selective. How selective depends on the rest of the table.