Capone Flip-Flops on Party vs. Stars SNGs + POLL

[Al_Capone_Junior]

OK. Time to pull a flip-flop. I am always willing to change my mind if I am clearly shown to be wrong, or if conditions change over time and one point of view becomes more favorable over another that was top dog in the past.

Well, that's what happened here.

I'm switching to the Pro-Party SNG team and abandoning the Pro-Stars SNG team.

Why? Cuz stars has become a friggin' rock garden, especially in the daytime, when I am usually online. (thank the Poker Gods I'll be in vegas soon and won't be online anymore at all, except for the rare 2+2 event).

I mean seriously, I have not noticed any difference between the $22 and the $55 or $109 sit and goes on stars lately! Fking ROCK gardens! I tend to play the small ones real early in the morning, before I wake up. I mix it up during the day too, sometimes bigger ones, sometimes smaller ones, sometimes ring games. I also tend to avoid known 2+2ers.

Yea, of course you still have idiots in every SNG, at every level, on every site. But they are disappearing at stars faster than they are getting replaced. I guess because stars has about the best software (or close to it) of any site, all the best players tend to congregate there and stay there. Both ring games and SNGs at stars have gotten much harder to beat over time.

In contrast, all the newest, stupidest players tend to go to party. I guess it's because they advertise the most strategically, and have the most aggressive affiliate programs, so they get more newbies.

In contrast, I started playing more SNGs at party/empire, and have noticed a definite trend toward making more $$ there than at stars, lately it's been a LOT more money.

It's very unfortunate, but party/empire has the easiest ring games, easiest SNGs, easiest everything. Therefore I am basically going to abandon stars completely (save for 2+2 thingies) and play on party/empire.

Flip-Flop.



al

[Profit]

I only play the lower level SNG's, but have come to the same conclusion over the past month....

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to play the small ones real early in the morning, before I wake up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Alas, I too am finding that I can no longer beat the game in my sleep.

[Tosh]

I agree. Its a shame because Stars is unmatched in every aspect except its density of fish. It is a better place to learn though for people intending to go further than just beating on weak players.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You know, Al, I am also one who has long been anti-Party for SNGs because of the structure, but Ive seen some things recently that may change my mind, plus, they gave me $50 of free money last month. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

So last night I feel like playing about an hour before bed and there's a $5 NL ready to go, so I say WTF and enter. Well before the first round is done we're down to 6 players.

I took out the third guy to go. I was in the BB w/AKs. 3 limpers and the button makes it 200, so I push in and he calls with ATo and I double up.

I go on to win, but the strangest thing happens when we're 4-handed and I'm the big stack at 100/200.

UTG limps, and the SB (with about 1300) min-raises, so I fold. UTG calls. I forget exactly what cards show, but the flop is monochrome, The SB bets 500, UTG calls. A blank hits on the turn, SB bets 250, UTG calls. River is another blans, SB checks, UTG puts him in, and SB calls off the rest of his chips with Ace-high.

Maybe there is a good reason to play there.

[DrPhysic]

Al,

I agree with what you are saying, and especially with Tosh's comment about Stars being the better learning ground. There is a time, however, to put some money in the account, and I'm about there.

Are there other sites than just party that people would recommend? Ultimate? Paradise? Pacific? etc?

I would be interested in any feedback from the 2+2ers as to what sites they feel are easier than stars for a reasonably tight aggressive learner to pick up some bucks.

Doc

[William]

Funny, I have been posting for some days now about how tight/bad Stars has becomed, and I have seen many threads about the same subject.

I have always been a Party hater, because of their bad customer service and the lousy software that crashes all the time, but I have now been playing there for the last 10 days or so, it hasen't crashed once and the games are incredible soft. I haven't played NL ring games, but the SNGs, the tourneys and the limit games are all good. I guess the CS problem can be handled by avoiding to talk to them.

True Poker is also a good place to play, but you can only play one table.

I guess there are plenty of small size sites with fish, but how secure is your money?

I see no reason to play anywhere else than Party and coming from me (party hater) it's a hell of a recomendation.

Good hunting,
William /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Stoneii]

I'm so glad Al posted this. I thought it was just me but I've always played exclusively on Stars as I wanted to learn from the better players and I think I am. That said, I've been having a much harder time on SnG's than I had ever noticed in the months up until now.

It is becoming a rockier garden. This morning, a newbie mate of mine (who plays in B&M games with me and who I recommended to Stars for learning) was in and signed up for a $10+1. I joined him for a bit of banter and craic. There were 1 or two loose cannons for sure but it was unbelievably tight.

You know what's happened!! They all sit on the rail and watch the 2+2 tight-assed Euro games on Tuesday nights and think that's how it should always be. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

stoneii (drawing a modicum of comfort now from his SnG results of late /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif)

[mrbaseball]

I often play low level sng's at paradise and I have noticed that they have really turned rocky too. Often it will be level III before someone goes down. Used to be a couple in level one everytime /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

I am going to stick with stars, I don't want to dumb down my play. I would rather play at the level I am at, which allows for few mistakes, then open my game up, which can lead to only loose play and more mistakes.

although maybe its worth to try out for some easy money. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
hmmm.... I haven't been on Party for a while. Do they use Neteller?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Actually, the key on Party is to *not* loosen up your game. Play tight, ABC poker and let the first 4 or so bust out by being wild. Then when you get a big hand and push in, you can rest assured that (in the oft-repeated words of Dynasty) worse hands will call.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You basically summed up the strategy in two sentences.

Because I HATE playing poker online, I am only concerned with money when playing online. Therefore I have abandoned stars for party when it comes to both ring and SNG. I'll get back into playing for other reasons when I go back to playing live only poker.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Pacific SNGs are also quite easy, esp. the 10 handed no limit.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a shame because Stars is unmatched in every aspect except its density of fish. It is a better place to learn though for people intending to go further than just beating on weak players.

[/ QUOTE ]

For new players who want to be able to play well, not just tight, stars is probably a better place to play. But I have played almost everywhere online, and in many more places live, sometimes against very tough competition. Therefore I don't need the learning curve, I just want the $$, especially since I despise online play. People have reasons for playing, and when i have to play online (gag) it's only about money (save for 2+2 events).

al

[DrPhysic]

Al,

Are there enough players on pacific to get up a game? I had heard it was soft, but not enough players.

Doc

[DrPhysic]

Salt,

Yes, they take Neteller.

Doc

[BettnTibetn]

i agree party poker has god awful players...but the party poker site itself is awful. Also seems like stars sit and gos give you more margin for error because the blinds go up slower. This gives you more chances to kill the weaker players. And there are still huge supplies of really weak -players on pstars

[rusty JEDI]

I have always been on the party side of sit and go's. Last time stars offered a deposit bonus i burned through it with sit and go's and actually had a better roi, and in the money, but due to the longer time it took to play it wasnt worth it. However, the most recent stars deposit bonus i had a much tougher time and was a little over break even playing my pay no attention style game.


rJ

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
For new players who want to be able to play well, not just tight, stars is probably a better place to play. But I have played almost everywhere online, and in many more places live, sometimes against very tough competition. Therefore I don't need the learning curve, I just want the $$, especially since I despise online play. People have reasons for playing, and when i have to play online (gag) it's only about money (save for 2+2 events).

al

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely (again). Its hard to get excited about online SNGs and indeed almost any online poker. So money is the most important factor for most. Hence why I rarely play Stars SNGs and stick to the assured money at Party/Empire. Annoyingly theres not many good live games around here and I'd say as much as 95% of my playing is online, the odd 2+2 event is normally the only time I play with a group of good players.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

They are slow to fill, but once started they are generally easy. I am talking the 10 player ones here, not the 5 or 6 player ones, where the vig is too high to bother with.

Pacific is major slack ass when it comes to cashing out tho, don't expect to see it in one day like party or stars, more like 3-4 days.

al

[Ken Morris]

First, let me offer a bit more anecdotal evidence of the "toughening" of Party. In the only $10 S&G I played yesterday, all players remained at level V. The short stack was T635 and all others were over T1000. I went "like Broomcorn's Uncle" within a minute of level VII, to finish 7th!

I would suggest, however, that this increased toughness was inevitable. With thousands of new on-line players, some percentage will enjoy the game. A smaller, but still significant percentage will have some feel for the game, and be willing to commit to the requisite study. A smaller percentage yet (thank goodness) will discover 2+2, and begin to enjoy the wit and wisdom of this wonderful on-line poker community.

I don't know if I'm typical of this "uptick" in on-line play. I've never played in a B&M game, and currently have no desire to do so. I play Party S&Gs exclusively, with about a 50/50 mix of $5 and $10. My ROI over about 500 tournaments is 29%, with 44% ITM. I was at 33% ROI until the game toughened up (I began to notice a big difference in March), then slumped to 27%, made some adjustments and am back up to 29%). I'm starting to sample the $20 games, and am not finding the difference in competition that I'm sure existed even a year ago.

I have great respect and admiration for those who have the skill and desire to make a living - or second income - from this wonderful and exciting game. Like professionals of any kind, you all must "go where the work is." Fortunately, playing on-line makes that easy. I wish you all good luck on Party. In addition, I expect your exodus will add at least a percentage point to my ROI. I'll miss you all - sort of.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never played in a B&M game, and currently have no desire to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not meant to be personally offensive Ken, but I really pity you and all who take this approach to poker. Online really takes away a major part of the game, including the enjoyment of being around real people. And let's not forget the wealth of extra info you get playing live as well, something hardly ever mentioned anymore because everyone is stuck in the limit hold'em internet pit. Oh for the good ol' days when you looked your opponent in the eye, face to face, playing poker with him, instead of hiding behind a computer screen. Oh for the days when you could find all kinds of games. Oh for the day.

al

[Ken Morris]

No offense taken. I think it's more timidity than anything else. In any case, I shouldn't say I have no desire for something I've never tried. That's a bit over the top.

My concern is that others will "read me like a book." Not sure why. I routinely kill the couple of home games I play in. I'm an hour's drive from a casino that offers 3/6 and 6/12 (not much more, I think). Perhaps I should take a drive over there and actually see if I like it or not.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
I am only concerned with money when playing online.... I'll get back into playing for other reasons when I go back to playing live only poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

What other reasons are there?

Che

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Well, enjoyment and socialization are the two biggest, plus maybe just that I enjoy strategy games, whether for money or not. I used to play for tiny stakes for years before I got into playing for real $. There's far more to poker than just money.

al

[Che]

Wow, actually got a serious response out of you. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I also enjoy strategy games and would probably continue to play holdem even if I thought I would never make any money at it. I just wouldn't play as much. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Socialization? Well, I'm not into that most of the time. I guess that explains why I'm perfectly happy playing online and don't really see any benefit to playing live. The chat box provides enough (frequently more than enough) socialization for me.

Later,
Che

[Stoneii]

oh no, Al's right, try live, it's sooooo much better.

[Tosh]

Playing live is just plain better than online IMO. I hate that I rarely get to play live. For 2 main reasons really. 1) That my biggest strength is being able to read people and 2) Its just far more enjoyable and sociable.

[Stoneii]

Don't get me wrong, I've only played in a local live (small fry) game and I'm sure I give some hideously obvious reads away, but you certainly can pick up on some - are you having an asthma attack???????.

It is a great, friendly atmosphere and although I love poker in general and do enjoy the online games, I absolutely love the real ones.

It's just hard to keep the noise of yer heartbeat down when you're in a biggy and being stared down and you're sitting with the stone cold (stone_eyed) nuts!!!!

stoneii